Topic: Microphones for cello and other acoustic instruments

[gossling]

I'm looking to record cello solo and cello + piano, and other small classical and jazz sounding ensembles (other instruments may include saxophone, trumpet, flute, etc.).  I think I'm going to go with external preamp -> Tascam DR-1.  The microphones do not have to be discrete (recording will be out in the open), although discretion would be nice.  I will usually have full complete flexibility in placement.  I'm looking for quality over size.  It would also be nice if I could use the microphone for live sound reinforcement in addition to recording (on separate occasions of course). 

For cello solo and cello + piano, I'm looking for a full, classical, open cello sound.  For the more jazzy enemble, I want an ensemble sound, so a stereo pair is probably the best choice.  I'll be recording in a recital hall or church, or wherever has good acoustics.  Budget varies, depending on whether the microphones require phantom power, but I hope to pay no more than 400 US dollars total for a stereo pair and preamp.  I may not have access to a power supply, so a Church Audio setup looks like a nice option, as its preamp is battery powered.  Would the CA-11 or CA-14 omnis do the job? Or should I go with larger, more orthodox microphones (MXL 603, Studio Project C4, Rode NT5, Oktava MK-012).  With these latter microphones, I will also need a phantom power supply, which is a negative.  But if the quality is that much better than the non-phantom alternative, I'll go with it.

Thanks a lot

[gossling]

Just to clarify, I only need to reinforce my cello sound, not any other instrument.  So I won't need a stereo pair for reinforcement, probably.  The reinforcement application will be roughly equivalent to jazz in volume, and the hall's won't be gigantic. 

I've looked at the ATM350:
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/110eff47cc3b3a4c/atm350_ss_e.pdf

It has omnidirectional elements for about 50 dollars.  Potentially, I could use two of these clipped onto my cello in a cardioid pattern to pick up different spots on the instruments for the live sound reinforcement.  I've read that they compare with the DPA 4060 in the live sound reinforcement aspect (on cello).  But I'm not sure how good these would be for straight stereo recording.  Any thoughts?

A somewhat off-topic question: for the lemo hard-wired connectors on DPA 4060's, I read that you can just cut off the lemo connector and solder on a 1/8 or XLR male at the end.  I just wanted to verify that this was possible.

Thanks

[gossling]

Thanks for that info.

I know that the ATM350 has a good reputation for live sound reinforcement, but does this usually carry over to recording?

How do the SP-CMC-8 (omni) compare with the CA-14 (omni) and the DPA 4060? These three all seem like viable small options for both recording and reinforcement.  As of now, I could probably only afford one DPA 4060.  Are there any A/B recordings done involving these microphones? I would probably connect these -> CA-9100 preamp -> Tascam DR-1 line-in.  Is the SP-CMC-8's cost compared with the CA-14 justifiable?

[Gutbucket]

Live sound reinforcement will require a professional balanced output microphone due to the cable lengths involved.  The type of microphone used depends very much on the instrument application, and also the system and the hall.  A lot of different mics can be used for a stereo pair, so you need to define the live sound application in order to select a mic that will work for both.

This is a good point.  I'll only modify it by saying that the small omnis you are considering can do the reinforcement job when placed on your instrument.  Reading between the lines, you seem informed about that, but you would need to place the mic preamp remotely (close to the mic, perhaps at the base of the music stand or beneath the chair) and make the long run to the mixing board at line-level with a balanced connection.

[gossling]

XLR outputs on preamps mean the connection is balanced, right? Or not necessarily? So the 1/8" output on the CA-9100 won't work as a live sound reinforcement preamp?

If the microphone has a balanced output (like the ATM350 or possibly the DPA 4060), the preamp doesn't need to be close to the microphone? Would the output of the preamp still need to be balanced, in this case?

Is there any reason a pair of ATM350 omnis wouldn't do a good job of recording piano + cello from a standard distance?

Thanks for the warning about the balanced stuff.

[gossling]

Agh, and I was planning on controlling my volume onstage! All of these restrictions and rules make me want to just rely on the equipment of the venue for reinforcement.  I should let you know, I'm planning on not using monitors most of the time.  The audience will not be noisy.

Back to the recording aspect of my microphone choosing - any specific recommendations for cello and other jazz-classical chamber music? Would a single DPA 4060 do the job? Is there any way to tell if this ATM350 would do well for recording? I cannot find any samples of the microphone.  I have found good deals on MXL 603s microphone, which is supposed to be quite like the Oktava MK-012.  Studio Project C4? Any samples online that may help me? I've heard the Rode NT5 on strings, and I wasn't a big fan. 

Thanks again

[gossling]

I will never (or very rarely) be amplifying for solo cello.  I'll amplify the cello for the ensemble stuff.

Does it matter if the diaphragm is large or small in the reinforcing condenser? I was thinking about the CAD M179 for both recording and reinforcement, but it seems like it may not work for the latter application. 

The reason I wanted to mount the microphone on the instrument was not for the extra gain before feedback.  It was for flexibility and mobility.  I like the idea of being able to roam the stage without having to pick up a microphone stand and everything. 

So if you are in an ensemble with no monitors, and you have a soundguy running FOH, how are you going to know where to set your level vs. everybody else in the group?

I want to control my level to accommodate the various genres.  I was hoping to find two level settings during sound-check or rehearsal: one for the more jazzy numbers (I would turn up the gain so I could get a nice audible bass pizzicato).  another for the classical-esque (I would turn down the gain and let the actual cello do most of the talking).  I guess I could let the sound guy do it, but what can I say? I'm a control freak.  I guess just like the idea of sending out a line with everything ready to go, so all he has to do is plug it in to the soundboard.

Regarding the ATM350:
PHANTOM POWER REQUIREMENTS 11-52V DC, 3.5 mA typical

What does this mean? Can I power it with just 11V? Or does it mean that at any given time, it could require 11-52V? The DPA 4060's spec sheet says:
Min. 5 V - max 50 V through DPA adapter
But I've read that the optimal voltage for the 4060 is 8v or something no where near the 48V, and that 48V could actually fry it.  Would CA-9100 do a good job of powering and amplifying the ATM350 and the DPA 4060?


Thanks again

[gossling]

If you are shopping for a single mic though, you are probably better off getting the mic you want for recording, as most mics can be made to work live within the requirements of gain before feedback.

Thanks, that helps clear my thought process up tremendously. 

Would you recommend getting one quality microphone (AKG C414) or two budget microphones (Studio Project C4, MXL 603s, etc.).  What high end microphone would you recommend? I think it is important that the microphone have options for both cardioid and omnidirectional.  That is why I think the CAD M179 looks nice. 

Could I record the ensemble with a single omnidirectional microphone? Like a C414 in omni mode in the middle of the ensemble? Or would it be much better to have two? I heard a recording of a single DPA 4060 in front of a baroque chamber orchestra, and was really impressed.  I'm more concerned with clarity, detail, and depth than separation.  But if it makes that much of a difference...

[gossling]

Besides the power issue, would the CAD M179 work for live sound reinforcement?

The KSM141s are out of my range, at least new.  I'll keep my eyes open for used on ebay or yard sale, but I'm not sure how likely I will be able to find a good deal. 

I've read that ribbon microphones can be nice on strings, but I've also read that they require good preamps.  What kind of preamps are we talking about? I read somewhere for some you need upwards of 60dB of gain.  Are there any decent ribbons out there in my price range?

How would the CAD M179 compare with the Rode NT2?

Thanks

[dean]

My apologies for not reading the entire thread and jumping in, but "cello" caught my eye.  I record tons of live cello, as I archive for the band Jelloslave (two cellos, tablas and a drum kit).  I know these are bigger mics than you were thinking, but I absolutely love the sound of my 414s with the cellos.  Very warm, large sound that captures the instrument fully, IMO.  Multiple patterns available, but I go with omni 90% of the time, certainly whenever the situation allows.

[gossling]

Sounds like I should avoid ribbons then, haha.  Thanks for the lecture, though 

I absolutely love the sound of my 414s with the cellos...

Which 414s? And do you use a stereo pair for recording the whole ensemble, or individually microphone the instruments? The CAD M179 has been hailed as the "poor man's 414."  I'm pretty poor, so maybe I'll go that route

Nice band by the way! Could that be a tribute to George Harrison I hear? Nice...

[dean]

Sounds like I should avoid ribbons then, haha.  Thanks for the lecture, though 

I absolutely love the sound of my 414s with the cellos...

Which 414s? And do you use a stereo pair for recording the whole ensemble, or individually microphone the instruments? The CAD M179 has been hailed as the "poor man's 414."  I'm pretty poor, so maybe I'll go that route

Nice band by the way! Could that be a tribute to George Harrison I hear? Nice...

Indeed, they do a tune that combines Harrison's Within You/Without You with a J.S. Bach piece, and call it J.S. George.  Good sense of humor, that band.

I typically run split omnis with Jelloslave.  I put one mic right between & in front of the cellos, the other mic right in the tablas.  It's the only way to not be overpowered by the drum kit with that band.

[gossling]

And that's for recording purposes (as opposed to reinforcement)? Do you have any samples by any chance?

Thanks

[johnreelsound]

There are loads of reviews of popular mics and examples of recording sessionss on the sessions page that you can download and mix yourself  http://www.recording-microphones.co.uk/

good luck

John

[dean]

And that's for recording purposes (as opposed to reinforcement)? Do you have any samples by any chance?

Thanks

I suck at the internet, so don't know how to post a sample.  I can arrange to have an ftp put up at tapers.org for you, though.

Yes, for recording purposes only.  Also, realizing I hadn't answered your original question, which is that the 414's I run can be seen below in my sig line.