Topic: LDCs on a Shure A27M stereo mount... not fun!

[jaycdunn]

I was trying to mount a pair of AKG 414 on my Shure A27M last night. As you know, the 414 shockmounts are kind of a major pain in the rear. I'm sure I can get them in a DIN or NOS configuration without too much trouble, but X-Y is damn near impossible.

I know a lot of people aren't fans of X-Y. However, consider the following quote from the Oade Bros. website. "We find that all large diaphragm microphones must be set up in this manner to assure satisfying results."

I'm trying to get a pair of SDC to use for these shows... we'll see. I'll try mounting a pair of cheapo SPA MC1 mics right now. They don't have that ridiculous shockmount like the 414s.

So what configurations do you guys run when using LDC mics in a sports arena?

[edit] Maybe I'm just a dummy, but I'm not finding this Shure A27M mount very useful for LDCs. Ugghh! [end edit]

[flipp]

check the pics @ http://www.taperssection.com/reference/images/JasonB%20LD%20Mic%20Configs/
particularly the horizontal XY configs as the vertical XY config pics don't show how the shock mounts are mounted to the stand

< http://www.taperssection.com/reference/images/JasonB%20LD%20Mic%20Configs/MS%2090%20side.JPG  has one way to get some extra spacing between the shock mounts if reconfiguring the Shure bar sections doesn't allow enough seperation >

[jaycdunn]

Cool thanks for the links. The thing is that the AKG shockmount kinda sucks. It's hard to adjust the mics to the angle you want them at, then getting them to stay that way is ever more difficult. I may just use some different mics.

[momule]

I never really understood why people find the need to modify there vert bar when you can get the same result by just turning the mic's sideways.  (see pics)

[eric.B]

I was trying to mount a pair of AKG 414 on my Shure A27M last night. As you know, the 414 shockmounts are kind of a major pain in the rear. I'm sure I can get them in a DIN or NOS configuration without too much trouble, but X-Y is damn near impossible.

I know a lot of people aren't fans of X-Y. However, consider the following quote from the Oade Bros. website. "We find that all large diaphragm microphones must be set up in this manner to assure satisfying results."

I'm trying to get a pair of SDC to use for these shows... we'll see. I'll try mounting a pair of cheapo SPA MC1 mics right now. They don't have that ridiculous shockmount like the 414s.

So what configurations do you guys run when using LDC mics in a sports arena?

[edit] Maybe I'm just a dummy, but I'm not finding this Shure A27M mount very useful for LDCs. Ugghh! [end edit]

this quote from the Oade Website is entirely subjective IMO.  I will however say that I've never run my tlm170's in a large arena so it may hold true in those situations as LD's have poor off-axis response in relation to SD's.  If you do run your LD's in a smaller club I would highly recommend a myriad of configurations to find what you like best.

[RobertNC]

Not all shock mount designs are suitable for running XY horizontal.  My ADKs sag and put way too much stress on the bands. 

By any objective standard Doug's statement is so  overreaching to be absolutely meaningless.  ALL LDs?  Running even omnis XY?  That makes no sense.

The best recordings I have made with my LDs was DINa.  By far the worst recordings  I have made with my LDs is running XY.  That is based on the music I like recorded the way I like to hear it, and that is what really matters. 

I would not suggest running anything greater than 90 degrees because of the LD off-axis response characteristics, but if you are having problems with XY, but can get in a DINa (17cm 90) with what you have, go with that the first night and see how it does.

OK, yes LDs may not be the ideal choice for a big sports arena, and so you have a new rig and a few logistical obstacles.  Don't sweat the details too much.   The Holy Grail of amateur recording of guitar oriented music - that recording where you get so much detail and clarity you even hear the occasional slight finger squeak on a fretboard?  Phish in this venue, that is just not even close to being available, much less being capturable.

With all the gear in the world you are not gonna do but so good in this kind of environment.  OTOH you are still gonna get something listenable. 

The worst (by far) recording I can remember making in recent memory was Phil Lesh out on Penn's Landing in Philly a couple of summers ago.  If we had been any further back I would have had to swim the river and set my shit up in Camden NJ.  The wind was gusting so hard I got tons of phasing.  But hey even with all the problems, when we got back to our hotel all spun out, popped open a round of cold freshies, and plugged my deck into the box, we all thought it sounded great (at the time).

Go with whatever you've got, have fun, you can worry about the finer points some other time when you are in a small sweet sounding venue.

[jaycdunn]

Nice post Robert.

Thanks to those pictures, I was able to get the SPA MC1 mics in X-Y easily. But maybe I will run DIN. That was my original plan. I'll need to grab a ruler.

America West just called me as I started typing this. It looks like they're holding my flight out of John Wayne until I make up my mind. I've got a bunch of reptiles to feed. If I can get enough chores done tonight, do some laundry and get everything packed, I guess I'll go for it. Otherwise, at least the airline will give me a full refund if I don't go.

[DSatz]

Robert, I like your recommendations for setups with large-diaphragm mikes. The unevenness of their off-axis response sets an upper limit on how wide an angle you can set between them--but coincident cardioids at 90 degrees just don't make enough difference between the channels for a real stereo effect. Everything slides in toward the center (the natural result of having almost the same signal in both channels) unless you're quite close to the sound sources.

Unfortunately, all commonly available large-diaphragm condensers have dual-diaphragm capsules. Whether you set them to cardioid or whethery they're fixed (single-pattern) cardioids, at low frequencies their pickup pattern is not cardioid; it's more toward omni. When one such microphone is used as a soloist's mike or a spot mike that can be a nice effect, but in an X/Y stereo recording two such microphones become almost "coincident omnis" at the bottom end.

So I really think that you're right to recommend some spacing between the microphones, especially with cardioids. If they were small, well-made single-diaphragm cardioids, things would be different--you could widen the angle between them to 120 degrees or even more--but as you point out, that's not good for large-diaphragm mikes.

--best regards