Topic: Continuing KM184 discussion

[ghellquist]

Once again DSatz gives me a lot of experience based information and good things to consider. This is indeed a good place to learn.

When it comes to pricing, I sort of like comparing with other things in life. Say, as an example, eating a burger with fries. I can make it at home, I can eat it at McDonalds or I can eat it at a guide Michelin rated gourmet restaurant. It is basically the same thing, only differs slightly. But the pricing is quite different. Then again, I know that McDonalds makes a fair profit, most star restaurants barely goes into black. And my personal economy, cooking at home, is as always a disaster. In all cases a very low-priced base food, potatoes, are translated into something quite different, french fries. It is my choice where to buy it, no one is trying to fake pricing or hiding that from me.

This also goes for mics. The prices are public, it is my choice to buy or not. It might be that the basic materials are very simply and has a low price. The raw material costs for a mic capsule are not very high, a very small amount of brass, a few screws and a piece of plastic. Add what is probably less than a dollar of gold on the membrane and it sure adds up to less than 10 dollars. Yet it costs a lot more.

Another comparison. I pay about 20 dollars for a finished bassoon reed. The reed is made from simple raw materials, a short piece of a bamboo like grass ( Arundo Dorax ) that grows wild in many parts of the world, sadly not where I live. Add some short pieces of brass wire, some cotton thread, a little clear nail varnish. It only takes a few tools and some work. I can buy the raw materials for less than 2 dollars and attempt to make the reed myself. Go figure why I buy finished reeds.

There is not really any need to be upset about an openly advertised price on an item you do not really need and where there are several alternatives. I am not talking about KC5-s but about microphones where there are a lot of alternatives.

Anyway, my ramblings.

// Gunnar

[Nick's Picks]

The question remains, as Nick's Picks points out--if this stuff is so cheap and easy to make, where's the competition? The U.S. list price for a 5-meter Colette cable is currently $575; where are the $200 Colette cables that are as reliable, as low-noise and low-distortion, as successful at not picking up RFI despite being unbalanced, that stay flexible in cold weather, whose insulation doesn't tear, that don't twist and turn when you suspend capsules from them even when hot theatre lights are shining on the cables, and that are equally well backed up by professional service? The Schoeps patent on active accessories has expired, so as long as you don't try to sell your cables as Schoeps products, they can't touch you legally. You can already buy two different kinds of (almost worse than useless) fake Schoeps shock mounts from China, Inc.; why haven't they (or you) duplicated the Colette cables or extension tubes? Hell, why don't they (or you) sell equivalents to the CMC-- amplifiers for, say, $350 instead of nearly $1000--an even bigger profit opportunity?

--best regards

My point was a little sarcasm.., in case it didn't come through.
It just seems funny to me that so many people on the board are quick to say how cheap / simple this should be .., yet nobody has come up with anything in several decades of active concert taping.
sans nbox/jk-labs/ruttlehuber ...any other obscure dinosarus I missed?

seriously, if the parts are not an issue, and assuming you can get a machined barrel to fit it in and screw on a cap...,
we should see actives for Pelusos, ATs, Oktavas, Gefells, AKGs, Audixs..and all the other multi-cap condensers we use.
BUT...we dont.  we haven't..and I doubt we will. 
So, I guess its likely not as simple as us armchair engineers suggest.  If any one of we tinker types built such a thing and it worked in a concert taping environment, we'd likely own this WWW site by now.
;-)

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It just seems funny to me that so many people on the board are quick to say how cheap / simple this should be .., yet nobody has come up with anything in several decades of active concert taping.

A big limitation I see is demand.  Based on the Yard, I just don't see much money being spent right now.  The people who have the skills to do this are generally more interested in spending their time on projects that have a greater return and are more interesting/exciting.

Another factor that stops me from bothering... It has already been done where it counts most: the very best mics for this application - Schoeps and DPA - already have good/great active solutions.  The MGs are the exception.  But I don't see *that many* people signing up for MG actives.  I'm not even sure how many of us on this site currently own MGs.

I think the AKG taping market is much larger.  Though  I don't know how large..

I don't see many people saying it is cheap and easy, though a lot of people want "cheap".   The mechanical stuff?  Fairly easy for people who do that.  Some of us have CNC mills, lathes, etc, and can do the machining.  Auto chuck CNC lathe time is cheap.

Some customers expect you to be on a short tether.  That's a drag. Especially if you like to take long vacations, *and* continue developing cool new stuff.  What's the point of spending hours and hours at the bench and in the shop if you can't take the summer off?

I think this niche market is small... Small enough that it ends up being a "second job".  But it is large enough that it would be a significant on-going time drain.  Is it any wonder the JK labs guy burned out?

[stevetoney]

It just seems funny to me that so many people on the board are quick to say how cheap / simple this should be .., yet nobody has come up with anything in several decades of active concert taping.

A big limitation I see is demand.  Based on the Yard, I just don't see much money being spent right now.  The people who have the skills to do this are generally more interested in spending their time on projects that have a greater return and are more interesting/exciting.

Another factor that stops me from bothering... It has already been done where it counts most: the very best mics for this application - Schoeps and DPA - already have good/great active solutions.  The MGs are the exception.  But I don't see *that many* people signing up for MG actives.  I'm not even sure how many of us on this site currently own MGs.

I think the AKG taping market is much larger.  Though  I don't know how large..

I don't see many people saying it is cheap and easy, though a lot of people want "cheap".   The mechanical stuff?  Fairly easy for people who do that.  Some of us have CNC mills, lathes, etc, and can do the machining.  Auto chuck CNC lathe time is cheap.

Some customers expect you to be on a short tether.  That's a drag. Especially if you like to take long vacations, *and* continue developing cool new stuff.  What's the point of spending hours and hours at the bench and in the shop if you can't take the summer off?

I think this niche market is small... Small enough that it ends up being a "second job".  But it is large enough that it would be a significant on-going time drain.  Is it any wonder the JK labs guy burned out?

I'm not convinced. 

Burnout for one-sies and two-sies could be an issue, but I don't see that as a barrier in this case.  If actives were easily doable, someone would have waded into the realm of selling actives as a stand-alone product.   This is especially true when the short-term market for custom made actives here on TS.com would be strong and with a price point in the couple hundreds of dollars range.  We've had two separate projects (the AKG project and the busman project) start, but neither of them have ended up coming to fruition after many many months.  Finally, we have at least two cable makers here making less than $10 a sale and, so far, they don't seem to be burning out, so I'm not sure any of the arguments presented hold much water.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

If actives were easily doable, someone would have waded into the realm of selling actives as a stand-alone product.   This is especially true when the short-term market for custom made actives here on TS.com would be strong and with a price point in the couple hundreds of dollars range.

A solution for mid-tier capsules priced at "a couple hundreds", one pair at a time - the money just isn't there to make it worthwhile.  As you state, it is a short term market.  There would be a spike in demand and then, not so much.

Cables are a fairly generic commodity anb completely different.  People can mostly get them anywhere, and they don't have many on-going support issues.   But it does take practice to do them neat and quick (and not everyone can make good cables).  It's great that some people are willing to make them for $10 profit.  An exception to "commodity" may be *good* stubbies.

[illconditioned]

If actives were easily doable, someone would have waded into the realm of selling actives as a stand-alone product.   This is especially true when the short-term market for custom made actives here on TS.com would be strong and with a price point in the couple hundreds of dollars range.

A solution for mid-tier capsules priced at "a couple hundreds", one pair at a time - the money just isn't there to make it worthwhile.  As you state, it is a short term market.  There would be a spike in demand and then, not so much.

Cables are a fairly generic commodity anb completely different.  People can mostly get them anywhere, and they don't have many on-going support issues.   But it does take practice to do them neat and quick (and not everyone can make good cables).  It's great that some people are willing to make them for $10 profit.  An exception to "commodity" may be *good* stubbies.

I agree that the parts to build a product are often much less than the retail price.  But you have to factor in the development, the support, and over-engineering.  Making a product that is completely reliable.  A Scheops or Neumann owner will not tolerate cables with flakey contacts, or cables that wear out.  They are paying top dollar so that they don't break during a critical recording.  And so they can be serviced for many many years after original purchase.

OK, that said, for hobby users, we can certainly build these.  Like preamps, there is a market for these.  What we cannot build though, is the capsules themselves.  That is something that makes a hobby affordable for us.  We can buy a pair of $300 akg capsules and build our own actives.  We don't need to buy the bodies.  Thank goodness for the internet and forums like this.

OK, so rock on Freelunch.  Build them if you can.

  Richard

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I agree that the parts to build a product are often much less than the retail price.  But you have to factor in the development, the support, and over-engineering.  Making a product that is completely reliable.  A Scheops or Neumann owner will not tolerate cables with flakey contacts, or cables that wear out.  They are paying top dollar so that they don't break during a critical recording.  And so they can be serviced for many many years after original purchase.

JK labs and Bill Reutelhuber (Rmod) both already did it, quite a long while ago.   And the former developed his own colettes, while the latter used the Schoeps colettes because they were fairly inexpensive at that time.  And we currently have the Nbox, with excellent support and reliability.   My Rmod box is ancient, yet still solid.  It is an awesome design, with a really great implementation.

OK, so rock on Freelunch.  Build them if you can.

I have no motivation to do so... I already have two active solutions.  There is no satisfaction in copying the Rmod.   Hacking on the design might be fun, but I question whether it could be improved.  Any attempt at improvement would require a great deal of trial and error.  It already uses the very best components, wires, shortest signal paths, etc.

As you state, the capsules are critical to a great recording.  Why spend time on anything but the best capsules?  Especially when we've seen mk4's in the yard for $800 recently..