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Author Topic: Matrix help and a few general equipment questions  (Read 3140 times)

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Offline achalsey

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Matrix help and a few general equipment questions
« on: April 15, 2010, 05:41:32 AM »
I've read over the "Enter the Matrix" starter a few times but I'm still a little curious about some stuff.

To start, I've got CA 14's (cards and omni's) > CA 9100 > R-09, along with a RCA > 1/8" cable (along with the necessary adapters) coming.

My first question is (and this may be a different question all together): whats the difference between "line-in" and "mic-in?"  From what I've read, I've gathered I think it has to do with if you have a preamp or not, but I have no idea why that's actually the case.  I assume not, but, could these be used as a two channel input?

Then, second (actual matrix question), whats the difference between a mixer and a preamp.  The matrix guide suggests a UA-5 (I think the guide is pretty old) as a mixer but after looking it up briefly, turns out its a preamp.  Whats the difference?  I was thinking the recorder needed an input for any source used, but can the preamp filter them down?

To sum up, I'll be touring with my cousin in June/July and want to pull the best recordings I can, including matrix's (sp? I don't know the plural of matrix).  There is a UA-5 in the yard sale that I really want to grab but don't know the difference between that and the 9100.  If possible I'd love at least 2 channels to make a matrix, but like I said, I assumed that was on the recorder and not the pre, so do I need to upgrade/supplement my recorder or pull for the UA-5?

Any help would be much appreciated.  Thanks.

allyn.

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: Matrix help and a few general equipment questions
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2010, 06:35:22 AM »
I've read over the "Enter the Matrix" starter a few times but I'm still a little curious about some stuff.

To start, I've got CA 14's (cards and omni's) > CA 9100 > R-09, along with a RCA > 1/8" cable (along with the necessary adapters) coming.

My first question is (and this may be a different question all together): whats the difference between "line-in" and "mic-in?"  From what I've read, I've gathered I think it has to do with if you have a preamp or not, but I have no idea why that's actually the case.  I assume not, but, could these be used as a two channel input?

Then, second (actual matrix question), whats the difference between a mixer and a preamp.  The matrix guide suggests a UA-5 (I think the guide is pretty old) as a mixer but after looking it up briefly, turns out its a preamp.  Whats the difference?  I was thinking the recorder needed an input for any source used, but can the preamp filter them down?

To sum up, I'll be touring with my cousin in June/July and want to pull the best recordings I can, including matrix's (sp? I don't know the plural of matrix).  There is a UA-5 in the yard sale that I really want to grab but don't know the difference between that and the 9100.  If possible I'd love at least 2 channels to make a matrix, but like I said, I assumed that was on the recorder and not the pre, so do I need to upgrade/supplement my recorder or pull for the UA-5?

Any help would be much appreciated.  Thanks.

allyn.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS:

Line In vs. Mic IN: In your case you will be running LINE IN, unless you want to not use the 9100 (like when you need to keep the amount of gear to a minimum).  The 9100 provides POWER to your mics, and also is the PREAMP. In outputs a LINE LEVEL...so that is why you use LINE IN. If you want to skip the 9100, you can have the R09 provide the power to your mics and also act as the preamp. This will work, but not as well as the 9100 which uses better componants to bring your MIC level signal up to a LINE level signal.

Mixer Vs. Preamp: These are totally different things...although they can, in some cases be integrated into one box (like the UA5). A Preamp AMPLIFIES a mic level signal up to a line level signal. A mixer MIXES 2 (or more) signals together. In the case of the UA5 you can mix your mics and a line level together which is then outputted out of the UA5 to your recorder.

9100 vs. UA5: The 9100 will provide power and amplify your mic level signal to a line level. The UA5 will do the same thing, but you can also plug another signal (usually the SBD) into the back of it and mix them together. I do not like to mix "on the fly" like you have to with the UA5. This is because there will often be a delay between the SBD and your mics because of the distance between the speakers and your mics. Basically the signal out of the SBD travels at the speed of light to the UA5, but the sound from the speakers only travels at the speed of sound (duh).

IMO there are 2 good ways to make a matrix recording. There are advantages and disadvantages to each way.

Option 1: Use a 4 (or more) channel recorder. The advantage to this is that all of the sources will be "in sync" so it is MUCH easier to mix the sources together. This is because you are using the same word clock to convert the analog signal to the digital signal. The disadvantage to the one recorder method is it is more difficult to place your mics where you want to. Sometimes it's nice to run your mics on stage, or sometimes the SBD is not located in the sweet spot (the place where it sounds the best in the venue). Despite the disadvantage of mic placement I still prefer this method. You can always bring long cables to run from your mics back to the SBD or occasionally cool venues will allow you to plug your mics into the snake on stage which will run your signal back to the SBD (this is advanced stuff...so don't worry if that doesn't make sense).

Option 2: Use TWO recorders. One for your

mics and one for the SBD, and mix the 2 sources together in post (I use Wavelab). This is probably your best option since you have a 2 channel recorder. You would need to buy ANOTHER 2 channel recorder to do this. The advantage is obviously 2 totally separate sources. You can place each recorder where you want to. The disadvantage is that the 2 sources might not be exactly in sync. This is because the 2 analog to digital converters may not be exactly the same. They will be close, but it doesn't take much to get the two sources to be out of sync. Not to worry, it is fairly easy (with a little practice) to get them to be the same. In Wavelab (or similar), you will STRETCH one of the sources to be the same as the other. What I do is line up the 2 sources at the beginning of the recording. When you go to the end of the recording the 2 sources will probably be slightly out of sync. You need to stretch the shorter recording to match up with the longer recording. I try to find a loud noise towards the end of the recording and match them up there. Unfortunately this is difficult to explain here. It's actually pretty easy to do, and it would be really easy to show you how to do it if we were in front of my computer. If you're fairly computer literate you could easily figure it out. Maybe someone has made a guide for this. I used to have a guide here where I would chop up one source into tracks and mix them that way. Not sure if it's still around. That is another option, but I think the stretch method works better and is more accurate.

Hopefully that points you in the right direction.

I do have quite a bit of time on my hands (I'm working nights...and my job has A LOT of down time). Maybe I'll write a new guide...but I have a tendency to get distracted...so who knows.

What band are you touring with?

Good luck and have fun!

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Offline achalsey

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Re: Matrix help and a few general equipment questions
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 07:25:29 AM »
^^^I appreciate that greatly, that is basically exactly what I was trying to find out.

At this point, I'm thinking two recorders would be most cost effective.  One into the SBD and the other into the cards or omni's (depending on the club).  As much as I'd like to, I'm not really trying to spring for a 2000 dollar 4 channel recorder.  I'm thinking my R-09 and then investing in an HR or possibly a R-5.

That being said though, if I could sell the R-09 and spend a 100 or so more (willing to spend ~500) on a recorder that had a couple more channels, I would be more than open to suggestions.

OH, and I'll be touring around with "the Voodoo Fix."  They're pretty much unknown but surprisingly really good.  They're basically blues rock.  Phish style funky Clapton southern rock, I'd say.

We'll be heading to Colorado Springs and two nights in Denver so I'll be posting along the way if anyone wants to come out.

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: Matrix help and a few general equipment questions
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 07:33:18 AM »
The DR-07 is another cheap alternative. I use it for the occasional board feed. Works great for me. They go for about $150 new, although they can be found for cheaper. I think B+H Photo has them for less.

Do you live in Colorado?
||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 | DPA 4022 | DPA 4080 | Nevaton MCE400 | Sennheiser Ambeo Headset |||
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||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre6 | iPod Touch 32GB |||
|||Concert History || LMA Recordings || Live YouTube |||

Offline achalsey

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Re: Matrix help and a few general equipment questions
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 07:56:23 AM »
"Do You Live in CO?" (messed up previous response: somehow got the quote lines wrong)

Unfortunatley not.  I lived in Ft. Collins for a few years (and loved it, am forever a New Belgium supporter) but am in farmville (ie. Fresno), CA now.

If I don't relocate to the bay area, fort collins is definitely my next best option.

(BTW, I'm from CT, lived outside of Philly for a few years (don't recommend that), and can't say enough about Colorado.  Definitely one of my favorite places I've been.)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 08:51:25 AM by achalsey »

Offline georgeh

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Re: Matrix help and a few general equipment questions
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 09:47:21 AM »
What's the band? Tour dates?
I'd go with two recorders, in case one craps out on you. But I can tell you also, with out them being time coded it is (or can be) painful to matrix. Although you may very well have an easier time then I have with the matrix.
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Offline rastasean

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Re: Matrix help and a few general equipment questions
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 10:12:57 AM »
I think for right now, two recorders would be a good setup for you.

Right now the mics you have (same exact ones as me) don't have xlr so getting something like the R44 (a 4 channel recorder) wouldn't make sense because that is usually used on xlr type mics which require phantom power.

good luck with the traveling band! be sure and put them up on the archive.

Another advantage of NOT using a 4 channel recorder is that you don't have to be 20-30 foot cables if you want to do stage lip.
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