Topic: Sound Devices 302+Zoom H4n versus Just Sound Devices 702?

[skimmel]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

[Shadow_7]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

Because you probably have two lavaliers on the two people and a 3rd mic on a boom.  Otherwise it'd be more of a podcast than a documentary.

[Shadow_7]

i will start with  phrase you will not  like - you don't know anything about video production and  audio rigs which used in that business :-)
second when im talking external power i refer to external battery power as no way anyone in video world will use ac  as  a main source when he on the move , not even when he does sit down interviews  , you don't want to get  ground or dimmer issues .
and even when you do hooked to console to record anything  you better  stay on batteries not to be accidentally caught off .
be in mind that no one in my business care  what your or my recorder power inside as it what it supposed to do , the only care is the total power it drains , so if you know how to calculate   you know exactly what beast you need to hook from outside to get X  hours of operation .
usually manufactures will give you number that not incl ph power calculation as it changes from mic to mic,  to calculate it you multiply the current draw( ma ) by voltage ( 48 v)and add 10-15 % to dc to dc  efficiency .

by the way i didn't get your first sentence  but never camera dc shared with audio rig if that what you mean

another thing  for normal work flow   not bee need to change battery in  every component  as usually cant be in same time  and sometimes in video world you have allot of them , you use one  or 2 dedicated source s while the internal batteries only for if the shit happens
video is completely different world then tapping , you get money for  so you better know how to work get the next call :-)

HUH?

When did we start talking SD 788T and Alexa?  Or even video business?  Cameras like the Alexa have TWO batteries so you can swap one for a second without pausing in the process.  I'm not seeing where the EXTERNAL power issue is here?  If you're running it so close to the wire that you have to calculate battery life, perhaps you should have bought additional batteries months ago.  If you're getting paid, you can NOT run that risk period, even a calculated one.

[skimmel]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

Because you probably have two lavaliers on the two people and a 3rd mic on a boom.  Otherwise it'd be more of a podcast than a documentary.

Ah, thanks.  I was thinking of documentaries where 1 person was speaking to the camera, rather than 2, but this makes sense.

[Shadow_7]

The real question where are you going ?
If you intend to grow up in documentary /video business you probably will find that 3 input s are  the minimum required , if not ,you can live with 2 inputs only .
 

Sorry again for dumb question, but why, typically, does one need 3 or more mics for documentaries?

Because you probably have two lavaliers on the two people and a 3rd mic on a boom.  Otherwise it'd be more of a podcast than a documentary.

Ah, thanks.  I was thinking of documentaries where 1 person was speaking to the camera, rather than 2, but this makes sense.

Even with one person you might have a lavalier and a shotgun and a boom mic.  Failure is not an option.

[oleg]

that is a  true American way , i prefer not deal with lavaliere if i don't need one :-)

[oleg]

i will start with  phrase you will not  like - you don't know anything about video production and  audio rigs which used in that business :-)
second when im talking external power i refer to external battery power as no way anyone in video world will use ac  as  a main source when he on the move , not even when he does sit down interviews  , you don't want to get  ground or dimmer issues .
and even when you do hooked to console to record anything  you better  stay on batteries not to be accidentally caught off .
be in mind that no one in my business care  what your or my recorder power inside as it what it supposed to do , the only care is the total power it drains , so if you know how to calculate   you know exactly what beast you need to hook from outside to get X  hours of operation .
usually manufactures will give you number that not incl ph power calculation as it changes from mic to mic,  to calculate it you multiply the current draw( ma ) by voltage ( 48 v)and add 10-15 % to dc to dc  efficiency .

by the way i didn't get your first sentence  but never camera dc shared with audio rig if that what you mean

another thing  for normal work flow   not bee need to change battery in  every component  as usually cant be in same time  and sometimes in video world you have allot of them , you use one  or 2 dedicated source s while the internal batteries only for if the shit happens
video is completely different world then tapping , you get money for  so you better know how to work get the next call :-)

HUH?

When did we start talking SD 788T and Alexa?  Or even video business?  Cameras like the Alexa have TWO batteries so you can swap one for a second without pausing in the process.  I'm not seeing where the EXTERNAL power issue is here?  If you're running it so close to the wire that you have to calculate battery life, perhaps you should have bought additional batteries months ago.  If you're getting paid, you can NOT run that risk period, even a calculated one.

Alexa , it has 1 battery tray  in which you can place battery or dual battery holder or what calls reserve battery and holder .
when the main battery goes down you still have 10-15 minutes in reserve or as many do and use ext dc input which you can parallel hook second ext source  till you exchange  one . by the way already shoot 2 days with last week( commercial )  recording directly true Alexa to aja ki pro by  sd-hdi .   nop  , i don't calculate minutes in my rigs , i calculate hours or days  as usually work with  160 w   lithium ion ones.  And thank you for your concern i have about 1800 watt in all of the available for me , and yes i have ability for hot swap in all my rigs  as well .
 i was more referring for small rigs  where you don't want to use  very large batteries   to keep the weight as small as possible and get at least 8 hours  continues running time

[oleg]

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj119/paulgiraffe/IMG_2117.jpg

there is a picture that shows  that you need do some calculation :-)
not my , i rarely came to 9 receivers and 2 shotguns on my deva 16

[Shadow_7]

i was more referring for small rigs  where you don't want to use  very large batteries   to keep the weight as small as possible and get at least 8 hours  continues running time

I don't know of many small rigs that can do 8 hours continuous.  HV30 uses tapes - 1 hour.  My FH1 has an internal battery - 2 hour.  And I have to remove it from the tripod to replace the battery.  15GB-ish per hour of 24Mbps AVCHD stuff, so 4 hours would be 60GB-ish with most running on SDHC (Max 32GB) or SDXC (tending towards 64GB at the moment).  The only real way to do 8 hours continuous with those small things is to have two camcorders and swap rigs.  Although some have time lapse abilities that let them run and record at intervals for 8 hours.  And some have beefy internal HDDs for long run times.  Outside of an external DC adapted cell for those, you generally can't hot swap the battery on those.  But once you've gone that route, you can't exactly put that rig in many underwater enclosures.  Plus other how to swap media in things in the rain.  Even if you opt to use rain capes and other things to prevent outright failure.  Thinking survivor man style recording here, not news at 10 or anything more commercial.  Local amateur football games, baseball games, marching band shows, and the likes.  Without access to the press box and shelter + power.  On rickety old HS stadiums that probably don't even have a press box.

[Erick del Valle]

that is a  true American way , i prefer not deal with lavaliere if i don't need one :-)

Oh man, I can not agree more with you


Erick del Valle
Santiago de Chile

[Erick del Valle]

I forgot to talk about what is discussed here, in my opinion is better to have the option of using 302 independently when you need to record directly to a camcorder, and if you need a dual system, the 302 has a dedicated mix out (- 10dB) for that purpose regularly use my 302 connected to my d50 and balanced outputs connected to the camera, the result is always good

Hope this helps

Erick del Valle
Santiago de Chile

[oleg]

i was more referring for small rigs  where you don't want to use  very large batteries   to keep the weight as small as possible and get at least 8 hours  continues running time

I don't know of many small rigs that can do 8 hours continuous.  HV30 uses tapes - 1 hour.  My FH1 has an internal battery - 2 hour.  And I have to remove it from the tripod to replace the battery.  15GB-ish per hour of 24Mbps AVCHD stuff, so 4 hours would be 60GB-ish with most running on SDHC (Max 32GB) or SDXC (tending towards 64GB at the moment).  The only real way to do 8 hours continuous with those small things is to have two camcorders and swap rigs.  Although some have time lapse abilities that let them run and record at intervals for 8 hours.  And some have beefy internal HDDs for long run times.  Outside of an external DC adapted cell for those, you generally can't hot swap the battery on those.  But once you've gone that route, you can't exactly put that rig in many underwater enclosures.  Plus other how to swap media in things in the rain.  Even if you opt to use rain capes and other things to prevent outright failure.  Thinking survivor man style recording here, not news at 10 or anything more commercial.  Local amateur football games, baseball games, marching band shows, and the likes.  Without access to the press box and shelter + power.  On rickety old HS stadiums that probably don't even have a press box.

that what i say you don't  really in video business , continues running time for sound mixer  is continues time i power my rig  if i recording or not ,the camera exchange buttery , tape reloads  , time for each card not coming to my calculation .
 the total time of actual recording may be 2 hours while the operator had it 8 hours on his  shoulder .
 usually no one in docu do hot swap  , if you have important shot you place new battery and not play around , and if it dies  it take 20 seconds go  record again.
 but unfortunately no one like wait to sound mixer change 20 batteries in his rig :-)

[Shadow_7]

Of course no one wants to wait on anyone when money is involved.  On a side note, I've never seen a concert go longer than 4 hours continuous.  At least none that I've been too.  Festivals, telethons and other things of course, but there's generally some gap-age in there while the bands swap sets.  And the larger venues have power options beyond batteries.  Swapping the 12 batteries on my sound gear takes slightly less than 3 minutes on location.  Considerably less time at home since I have a table and other things to make it easier.  And yes I plug in, when the option is available and the risk is minimal.  It saves considerable time after the gig in terms of battery charge times.

I'm not an industry person by no means.  And I don't really desire to be one, although I'm not past making a buck.  I merely want the capability to record anywhere, anytime, under any conditions (including bad weather).  With pro-like results.  Something which most pro's seem to be incapable of doing.  You can't bank on power options in the middle of a hurricane.  Odds are good that you wont have access to any.  And battery plus inverter options are not ideal when just trying to survive, or in flood like conditions.  Not that my ideal rig does much more than a glorified soccer mom could do.  I'm just willing to spend the couple extra bucks for the pro-ish capture components.  Which doesn't leave much left for pro-ish rigging while keeping to a budget of total device costs cannot exceed the cost of my vehicle.  And I don't expect to be driving anything other than sub $20K vehicles in my lifetime.  Baring super inflation, which seems to be the current political agenda.