Topic: Omnis or cards when recording outdoor shows?

[Jonas Karlsson]

Hi all!

This is a common question, and I think most people tend to say - "everyone's different, use what you think sounds best" 

But I thought everyone could get their points across here: What would be the best choice this coming summer when taping outdoors shows (R-09hr+CA14) about 30-50 feet from the PA at every show, different size (festival to smaller gigs).

What is YOUR opinion?

/Jonas "jontebus" Karlsson

[12milluz]

If you're only about 30-50 feet from the stage, I'd go for omnis. They would be much fuller especially that close to the PA.  Usually people say it's easier to make a decent recording in any environment with cards (I would generally agree with this), but if you can get a good setup and separation, omnis would be the way to go. If you're inside in a small room that sounds shitty though, go with the cards.

[dean]

If you're only about 30-50 feet from the stage, I'd go for omnis. They would be much fuller especially that close to the PA.  Usually people say it's easier to make a decent recording in any environment with cards (I would generally agree with this), but if you can get a good setup and separation, omnis would be the way to go. If you're inside in a small room that sounds shitty though, go with the cards.

Totally agree.  Also, if there's wind outdoors, definitely want to go with the omnis.

[DigiGal]

If you're only about 30-50 feet from the stage, I'd go for omnis. They would be much fuller especially that close to the PA.  Usually people say it's easier to make a decent recording in any environment with cards (I would generally agree with this), but if you can get a good setup and separation, omnis would be the way to go. If you're inside in a small room that sounds shitty though, go with the cards.

Totally agree.  Also, if there's wind outdoors, definitely want to go with the omnis.

Yes, Cards are more sensitive to wind noise than Omnis.  The Omnis will pick up more ambient sound i.e. crowd noise, so if it is a loud chatty crowd you may want to consider that too.  Windscreens with dead rats/cats/muppets whatever you want to call the furry overcoats that go over top of the foam windscreens are a big defense against wind noise.  So that's why your own ears/preference are ultimately your own deciding factor. 

Someone on this forum has/had a signature line the went something like; "Record > Listen > Revise Technique".

[Jonas Karlsson]

thanks for your thoughts, I did record at a big festival a few years ago with Sonic Studios DSM6-mic (omni, put on glasses) and actually those recordings sound great! Just ordered a CA14 omni (only got cards so far, super happy!!!)

However, I decided to get the omni-version since the sound closer at smaller places tend to get very narrow and thin, I actually think an omni will sound better in a small club than a card, but we'll see what comes out of it... I use the mics with a Kangol Ventair hat, using the mics just above the ears inside the hat. Greatest setup I've used for 18 years!

/Jonas "Jontebus" Karlsson

[yates7592]

Agree, the CA cards are a great mic but they do sound a bit thin, like you're missing a lot of the music....but just be careful first time you use the CA omnis - they are quite a bit hotter than the cards and the first time i used them on my regular settings i distorted - just needs a level/preamp adjustment that's all.

[Jonas Karlsson]

I'm not using a preamp, just a batterybox, but it should be fine just recording at a lower rec.level on the R-09. Used the CA11 omnis once, and had to lower from 70 to 50 with them.

/Jonas

[dean]

thanks for your thoughts, I did record at a big festival a few years ago with Sonic Studios DSM6-mic (omni, put on glasses) and actually those recordings sound great! Just ordered a CA14 omni (only got cards so far, super happy!!!)

However, I decided to get the omni-version since the sound closer at smaller places tend to get very narrow and thin, I actually think an omni will sound better in a small club than a card, but we'll see what comes out of it... I use the mics with a Kangol Ventair hat, using the mics just above the ears inside the hat. Greatest setup I've used for 18 years!

/Jonas "Jontebus" Karlsson

Omni mics in clubs *can* be problematic due to crowd noise, particularly more so if worn on the body and not up on a stand.  While the music will sound great, at times the applause or overall crowd noise can overwhelm the music.

Not always the case, but something for which to account.

[acidjack]

In the small/inexpensive mic category I almost always greatly prefer the sound of omnis (although the CA-14 aren't as small as say, the CA-11).  It just seems that when you get below a certain form factor, it is very difficult to make a rich-sounding cardiod mic, while even the tiniest omni mics like the Countryman B3/Nevaton MCE400/DPA 406x sound great. 

As you already know, with the omnis, you'll need to get close.

Just out of curiosity, do you still own those Sonics?   Personally if I had a set of those and was self-mounting, I'd probably run those over the -14s, if for no other reason because the SS are easier to mount on glasses.

[Jonas Karlsson]

In the small/inexpensive mic category I almost always greatly prefer the sound of omnis (although the CA-14 aren't as small as say, the CA-11).  It just seems that when you get below a certain form factor, it is very difficult to make a rich-sounding cardiod mic, while even the tiniest omni mics like the Countryman B3/Nevaton MCE400/DPA 406x sound great. 

As you already know, with the omnis, you'll need to get close.

Just out of curiosity, do you still own those Sonics?   Personally if I had a set of those and was self-mounting, I'd probably run those over the -14s, if for no other reason because the SS are easier to mount on glasses.

No, don't have the sonics anymore. Sold them because I only wanted ONE mic that would work in most situations. The sonics were no good in big arenas... what so ever.... The CA14's have been awesome in big arenas, smaller arenas but comes a little short in small clubs. I think the CA14 omnis will work better in small clubs...

Always stand as close as I can without anyone bothering... 

/Jonas

[Belexes]

I have used the CAFS on glasses in a club and put myself very close to the mains/stage. Acceptable results.  Normally I opt for cards in a small club, but if I can't get to the sweet spot or it's full of loud drunks, omnis close does the trick.

[SmokinJoe]

There is always one exception to the rule...   I went to a "brew fest", and taped the band that was there for entertainment.   I had been running omnis outdoors with good luck, so that's when I ran.  But I failed to consider the crowd. 

This is one of those events where people pay some fee to get in, and then run around asking everyone to fill up their glass with all the beer samples they can possibly drink.  At the first of the show it was pretty quiet, everyone was in the beer tents away from the stage.  But 2 hours later it was a total mob of shitfaced wookies hanging around my mic stand.   I should have run cards.

I guess I should have seen that coming.  But I didn't.   Luckily I had a SBD patch to mix in later.
http://www.archive.org/details/aeg2010-10-02.jzbt201-sbd-mix.flac16f

[Jonas Karlsson]

SmokinJoe: oh noo! Saw a band called Pretty Maids a couple of weeks ago in a small town in Sweden, and out of the 400 capacity perhaps half had only bought the tickets to have "a night out" (it was a saturday) and drink beer... with what result you ask? Well, I was just in front of the soundboard (leaning on it acutally) and when half the show had been done everyone just started talking to each other - looking FROM the stage!? I had babbling, drunks all over me all of a sudden! Now, I use my CA14 cards with a Kangol and I'm kind of tall so it didn't bother me in the beginning, but when I realized one guy was talking straight into my Kangol I had to move!

The recording sounds ok though. Would have been a disaster with a omni, but at clubs where I'm used to taping I know where to stand (most of the time) to avoid this behaviour, that's why I'm getting one.

SO - outdoors; omnis when planning on getting close and cards when planning on being a bit in the back? 

/Jonas