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Author Topic: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz  (Read 2633 times)

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Offline SophiaNita

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Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« on: October 04, 2011, 01:12:29 AM »
Hello, this is my first post, though I am a long time reader and fan of this wonderful resource of a site.  I'm looking to purchase a field recorder to capture outdoor sound effects, i.e footsteps, scrapes, water pouring, etc to use in professional audio productions.  I am hoping to use just the internal mic's on the recorder at this time due to financial reasons.  From what I've read so far the Sony PCM-M10 is at the top of my short-list.  However, I've read that field recorders in general are somewhat sensitive to handling noise.  My first question would be is the internal microphone set up on the M10 a good fit for my needs; low-noise, mic direction?  Second, does anyone know of a boom for the M10 for better handling sound quality while out in the field?  Not sure if they make one, the strip on the back looks rather small for a standard boom fitting.  Hoping some experts wiser than myself may lend their insight, would hate to make a premature decision in these times of global economic collapse  ??? Thank you in advance.

Best,
Sophia

Online jbell

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 09:59:48 AM »
The M10 is a good recorder, but most of use use external mics.  I suspect that most people will suggest you getting external mics if you want good result.  I don't think you will get the results you are looking for using internal mics.
Mics: DPA ST4011ER & 4018ER | Neumann kk 184 (matched)> Nbob/PFA
Preamps: DPA MMA 6000 | Audioroot Femto
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-10 II | Sony PCM A10

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Offline acidjack

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 04:23:04 PM »
The few professionals I know who do field work like I think you're describing with non-music sounds use the Sony PCM-D50, which is a bit more expensive.  I believe it mounts on a boom no problem.  They can be purchased on eBay for about $400.   As noted, most people here prefer external mics, but most of us also record only music.  Depending on your application, internal mics on a D50 are fine.  One friend, for instance, used what he recorded with it for TV commercials.

Obviously, that is the inexpensive way to go.  If you want super-high resolution recordings and have a budget in the thousands, I'd steer you to a Sound Devices recorder and any number of HQ mics.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

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Offline SophiaNita

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 04:36:34 PM »
Thank you for your responses.  With regards to connecting a shotgun to the PCM, do you guys take issue w the RCA input at all? the D50 looks amazing but is somewhat out of my range atm. Now I'm thinking of going w the M10 and maybe adding aRode NTG down the line but the RCA input seems a bit of a turn off, or am I mistaken? Thanks again!

Online jbell

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 04:39:31 PM »
The M10 doesn't have an RCA input!  It has 1/8 line & mic inputs
Mics: DPA ST4011ER & 4018ER | Neumann kk 184 (matched)> Nbob/PFA
Preamps: DPA MMA 6000 | Audioroot Femto
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-10 II | Sony PCM A10

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Offline SophiaNita

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2011, 04:44:42 PM »
Oh wow! That's embarrassing  ::). Well that sounds much better.  :)  thanks for the correction.

Offline hoccusfoccus

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2011, 09:25:27 AM »
Hi Sophia,

Portable recorder will not only limit on sound quality but greatly what and how it can be done in regards of SFX or any other location recording.

For professional productions, worry-free(ish) SFX,

It is really really needed to have the exact right kit for the job as no 'one item' can do all the tricks especially outdoors where the environmental factors step heavily into the play.

Environmental/Scene factors are: wind, RF, rain, room, snow, heat, humidity, talents.... etc.

Also feedback/monitoring/control of the recording plays big role.

Basic kit would include:
good external mic(s), shockmount/grip, bag, good headphones, gaffer tape, windshield along with a solid preamp+/ recorder that is capable of worry free, high sample rates, low noise, distortion free recordings.

Retakes can be costly or simply not doable and it is expected that the recordist and his/her gear delivers it in the first take. Talent(s) usually get frustrated very easily by technical issues and drives the recorder crazy too :)

Also portable recorder microphones are usually strictly 'cardioids' and these are not suitable for example non-loud-source distance micin' (tapers generally have loud sources but SFX in turn...) - imagine trying to recording alligators and stuff or other animals that easily get 'spooked away' if there is no time to silently 'crouch' in to be eaten by that very same alligator.

Also if you think on putting one to boom, portable recorders may or may not have remote control (zoom has but never tried it) and you would have to run long wire for headphones that contributes potentially into noise.

Other factor to consider as well is wind noise and these recorders are usually very sensitive buggers to any moving/wind etc... wind shields are pain with recorders

I recommend hiring the gear for the job - usually productions hire the gear - either from the recordist or from the usual suspects.

But not to let down anybody with portable recorder completely for SFX on budget - it's going to be pain but doable for some limited cases:

If you can get very close to the source, control the scene/env, with adequate wind/shock -shield/mount, your deliverable is not 192kHz, you and the producer can live with potential tradeoff in sound quality that potentially affects career progression by cutting the corners:

I've used Zoom H4n as a portable recorder at times with Rycote recorder shockmount kit (includes windjammer). The inputs of Zooms are garbage but internal mics are OK(ish) for close mic for low/no-budget stuff. Zoom does have excessive handling noise thus the rycote kit comes handy greatly reducing the handling noise (it includes clip for headphone cables too). I've thought about working on zepp for it as NZ is a bit windy ;D

and yeah, we 'improvised' once for fun with Zoom H4n and hung it on a 'boom' while shooting a quick little test: http://twitpic.com/2lg12k   'result': http://www.vimeo.com/14995377 (went little overboard with my bad noise reduction/mixing skillz in edit..)

If the portable recorder is thought as 'first investment' and 'build later into it' it would be wise to think about inputs as well as most pro mixers/mics output balanced XLR and very few recorders have good balanced inputs (if any!) - usually LINE in is used with these as preamps tend to be horrible. Current crop (to my knowledge) of small recorders with both XLR input & LINE/headroom (w/o running attenuators/pads) seem to suffer from horrible onboard mics (and wise-versa) and unbalanced signal transfer is a big No in professional productions. If the sound from these recorders have to be matched with image, drift will become important too.

btw there was a new recorder called Roland R-26 that had quite many mics.. but I see these just as marketing gimmicks.... I rather hire and save for a good kit than buy again and again wrong equipment.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 10:11:42 AM by hoccusfoccus »

Offline rastasean

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2011, 10:18:15 AM »
I think all the above advice is great!
Don't forget that most movies use sound foley to capture the required sounds and make the story more believable and probably spend hundreds of hours perfecting all the sounds to align just right. I think it is pretty unlikely that you would be able to clearly and crisply pickup someone walking down the hall AND pickup their voices very clearly, for example.

Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline SophiaNita

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 05:02:55 PM »
You guys are great!  Thank you for the thoughtful responses.  I pulled the trigger last night ordering the M10, very excited :D  I'm thinking of buying a shotgun mic of some sort down the line.  Can anyone recommend a descent one that could be used without a preamp or phantom box, (battery powered I'm guessing).  Does it have to be a stereo mic fed into the mic input?  Something really cheap 100-200 bucks...

Offline guysonic

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2011, 12:55:30 PM »
Many professionals working critical media projects have found the custom mics i make work especially well for your requirements.

Suggest looking at my http://www.sonicstudios.com/cinema.htm page for pro credits and see my recordings page www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm for sample recordings using the PCM-M10 and other similar recorders using a variety of DSM mic models.
Plese be patient as my sample recordings sounds server is coming back online in a few days with many hundreds of recordings done by me and many of my customers over a 27+ year period.. 

For your stated interests suggest the DSM-1S/H  mic model configuired with the WHB/N windscreen.  For working this microphone on a fishpole or boom look to the LiteGUY  baffle found at www.sonicstudios.com/liteguy.htm
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 12:58:50 PM by guysonic »
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adrianf74

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Re: Specific Field Recorder Advice Plz
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2011, 01:22:20 PM »
Many professionals working critical media projects have found the custom mics i make work especially well for your requirements.

Suggest looking at my http://www.sonicstudios.com/cinema.htm page for pro credits [EDITED TO SAVE PIXELS]

Glad to see you website back up and in action.  A great bunch of useful information on there, too.

 

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