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Author Topic: Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?  (Read 3043 times)

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Offline Hatgis

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Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?
« on: November 14, 2011, 02:03:40 PM »
Hello everyone, my name is Jonathan Hatgis and I have been a taper since 2001, member of TS since 2008, however this is my very first post in the forums.  :D 

Keeping this brief, I am interested in learning everything I can about the most effective ways to use a matched pair of Neumann TLM170's onstage for instrumental acts, and for acts with vocals who may allow me to run an onstage + sbd matrix.  I wish to learn everything I can, from technical information such as which polar patterns should be used depending upon specific mic placement, to situational strategies such as where the most effective place to run the rest of my gear from during the show may be, especially if I have the opportunity to run onstage and get a board feed.  I realize that some parts of my questions are very artist-and-venue-specific, so even general guidelines will be of enormous help to me.  I attempted to find this information via the TS search engine but I could not seem to come across the specific information I am looking for.

I hope I am posting this in the correct category, I know my questions span a few different areas but the foremost inquisition is into the microphone placement and usage so I decided to place it here.  I also apologize in advance if I used the search engine improperly, causing me to miss any previously posted information on this subject. 

Thank you in advance for any and all help.
L.M.A. recordings:  http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Hatgis%22

Rig used from 2001-2004: Schoeps mk(fill in the blank) -> KCY Actives -> Minime -> DA-P1

Rig used from 2004-present: Neumann TLM170R -> V3 -> SD722

jnorman34

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Re: Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 08:26:02 PM »
hat - you are starting to move out of the normal realm of tapers, who most often have no access to on-stage micing, to the potentailly much higher quality of exacting mic placement which most pros utilize.  i do chamber music where i always have access to the stage, and the ability to setup mics wherever i need them to acheive the best capture, since i am working for the musicians.

tlm170s are wonderful mics, and you should be able to do serious work with them.  they are mostly studio orented mics (being LDCs), and most folks tend to prefer higher end SDCs for on-stage micing, due to smaller visual intrusion, better transient response, and smoother off-axis response. 

i dont really know how much you already know, but in general, a basic ORTF setup will work for almost anything, and i would recommend it 90-95% of the time.  using them as a spaced pair of omnis can work if the hall sound fabulous and you can place the mics close enough not to overwhelm the mix with ambience - this is often only 4-6 feet out from the performers, and i do not use it often in live setups.  blumlein can be a perfect choice when you have a medium ambience acoustic and want to retain precise image placement, like a string quartet or small folk group.  if the hall is too live or too dead, go right back to ORTF.

key to any of this is learning to hear reverb.  until you are very experienced in assessing room ambience and how it will translate in a mix, stick to ORTF and learn to craft reverb during post - it is way better to get a recording that is too dry than one which is too wet.  get ahold of the most expensive reverb hardware or software you can afford and really spend a lot of time learning to use it.  altiverb is a good place to start if ITB.  bricasti m7 is the heavenly hardware, though muy spendy.  also keep in mind what kind of music you are recording - while a lex pcm91 can be perfect for vocals in a rock mix, it is often not the best choice for a oboe/piano duo, etc.  normally, small acoustic groups will sound better with a large room algorithm than with a large hall setting. 

all that said, you may want to visit the remote forum on gearslutz - lots of very knowledgeable folks hang there that do pro live recordings.  you may also want to pick up a copy of john eargle's "the microphone book" - eargle was the premiere engineer for delos, and a design engineer for JBL, and that book pretty much covers everything you want to know.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 08:31:42 PM by jnorman34 »

Offline newplanet7

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Re: Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 09:00:03 PM »
hat - you are starting to move out of the normal realm of tapers, who most often have no access to on-stage micing, to the potentailly much higher quality of exacting mic placement which most pros utilize.
Quite a many of us DO have onstage/stage-lip access.
From what I gather he is not talking about spot micing each cabinet and drums, he is talking
running a pair on-stage which most of us do/have done. CORRECT?


If so, you have A TON OF OPTIONS. Because the TLM's have 5 patterns the sky is the limit.
None of which are right or wrong.
You could go with some standards, cards/subcards in NOS or ORTF arrays which would be a safe as can be net IMO.
I Dig subcards NOS or a slightly bigger split, cards ORTF/NOS(every time I have run this I have had top notch results or even DIN.
I also dig Omni's onstage 3ft split.

All of this depends on how the stage is set-up too. Yo can use all the above with success but
sometimes(depending on say where the drums are) you may end up ROC or LOC to get the imaging you want.
Experiment and have fun.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:04:17 PM by newplanet7 »
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FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline page

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Re: Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 10:09:26 PM »
I agree with both previous posts. I really liked MS when I was doing stage-lip/onstage stuff with a compatible, but my current mics have me with cardioids as my most open pattern.

All of this depends on how the stage is set-up too. Yo can use all the above with success but
sometimes(depending on say where the drums are) you may end up ROC or LOC to get the imaging you want.

One thing I'll add is to learn how to anticipate sound source as alluded to. For example, if I have brass instruments on one side, drums in the center and a piano to the right, I'll favor the piano and when I apply more gain to the right side, it will pull the drum image back toward the center instead of being slightly left of center. An odd one that fooled me on the first outting; 4 trombones on the right, 3 trumpets on the left, drums in the center? Ironically trend toward hugging the drums, they were the most quiet of the three in the resulting mix when I was equidistant from everything. Other then that, trend just slightly toward trumpets as there are only 3 of them (again, to amp that side and keep the drum image centered after finishing adjustments).

The funky ones are where you have drums, a piano, and a banjo or something odd like that, but I use it to illustrate that you need to have a decent understanding of volume, an direction of projection of each instrument before the band starts.

most of all;

Experiment and have fun.
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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 10:12:55 PM »
Experiment and have fun.

Exactly.  Good guidelines here and there are many different options but, like most things, practice will make you better.  Not necessarily perfect. ;)

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 10:35:22 PM »
Welcome Jon. I taped with you at Mid Atlantic latenight Bisco in 2003 ;D And a few shows in 2002 as well!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline eric.B

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Re: Most effective onstage mic placement / setup with TLM170R's?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 06:49:33 AM »
some examples of setups using those mics onstage..  all from the same venue..

http://www.archive.org/details/TimConley2006-03-03.tlm170.eB.1644.flac

http://www.archive.org/details/OE2005-06-25.tlm170.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/oe2005-02-25.tlm170.ms.eB

http://www.archive.org/details/TimConley2005-09-30.tlm170.v3.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/OE2005-04-08.eB-tlm170ms-flac16

IMO the most useful setup depends on the variables at play..   These recordings are from a small tavern with minimal people there to watch, however larger crowds might eliminate my favourite orientation which is blumlien..   Second to that is M/S..   message me if you have any further questions as these are recordings from my collection with my setup..

edit to add::..  this recording is a small omni spread outdoors verrrry close to the band (onstage practially, even though there wasnt an actual "stage")

http://www.archive.org/details/OE2005-07-21.early
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:54:55 AM by eric.B »
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