Topic: Is shipping a ribbon mic by mail safe?

[connloyalist]

Hi All,

First post here.

I was wondering about something. I am considering buying a ribbon mic (AT4081, but haven't definitively made up my mind yet). Since ribbon mics are somewhat fragile, is it safe for the mic to have it sent to you through the mail? I am a bit concerned that the ribbon might be damaged on the way to me through normal handling by the postal service. The mail afterall isn't always a gentle process.

Regards, Christine

[pohaku]

As long as it is packed reasonably well, it shouldn't be a problem.  Have it double boxed if possible.  Of course that goes for any audio gear.   I've had lots of ribbon mics shipped to me.  Some wrapped better than others.  Never had a problem.

[2manyrocks]

I had two Apex 205s that came from the factory in a foam lined box.  You might want to check to see what the mic will be shipped in to be sure its adequately padded and use insurance. 

[DSatz]

I saw the AT4081 at the last AES show, and became rather interested in it myself. But then I noticed a bit of fine print below the frequency response graph: 12" or more on axis.

That's important. The usual measuring distance for professional microphones is 1 meter. At only 12 inches, any bidirectional microphone will show substantial proximity effect (= increased low-frequency response). So the low-frequency response of this microphone in actual use will be substantially less than what the printed graph indicates, unless you're close-miking.

By the way, DPA does pretty much the same thing; as a result, the frequency response graphs for their directional microphones can't be compared to those of most other manufacturers unless you deduct for the added proximity effect at 30 cm, which is the distance they generally use. That's actually very close to 12", so I guess you could compare A-T's curves to DPA's--but not to anyone else's.

(And now for my own fine print: Most professional microphones are actually measured at distances greater than 1 meter--but then their low-frequency response is "corrected" to what it would have been at a 1-meter measurement distance, and that is how the curves in spec sheets are obtained. If you "correct" for a smaller distance instead, as A-T and DPA do, the bass response will LOOK stronger on paper. But users won't actually get that strong low-frequency response unless they use the mike at 12 inches or 30 cm or whatever.)

[connloyalist]

My idea for the ribbon mic is to use it on brass and/or saxes (I record mostly big band and community band). So I would be using it to mic a section; more than 12". From what I hear ribbon mics work very well for this purpose.

Wandering a bit off-topic here, I have also been thinking about experimenting with the technique using by Capitol records around 1960 as described by Robert Auld http://www.auldworks.com/bbandrecord/bbandrec3.htm whereby the sax section is grouped around a figure 8. He used an AKG 414-B-ULS in figure 8 mode, but Capitol used a ribbon mic for this purpose back in the day (an RCA-44 in my understanding). Since something like the AT4081 is actually cheaper than an AKG414, that might be two birds with one stone.

Yes, I realize this results in a very old fashioned recording with the saxes mono on the left and the brass mono on the right. 

Either way, a figure 8 mic that is the same on both sides is important. With respect to the AT4081, from what I understand it is well built and reasonably robust as ribbon mics go. And perhaps a good compromise between the cheap and more expensive ribbon mics. Plus, it is active, which means I should be able to run it straight into my recorder and have enough gain.

Other suggestions of course welcome

Regards, Christine

[DSatz]

Jon, I believe you (and what you say about the cardioid response curves is very true), though I'd like to know some of the manufacturers you have in mind.

For a microphone nerd like me, one of the most interesting things to attend at AES conventions is the standards committee meeting for microphone measurement (SC-04-04), chaired by David Josephson. There is open discussion there among the principal engineers of the world's greatest microphone manufacturers, nearly all of whom treat each other as friends and colleagues. Any member of the AES can attend, including students (at the last meeting a student made some really valuable contributions) and end users (which is what I'm there as).

And let me just say, since some people here will know the name, that the way Mr. Josephson leads these meetings is a model of a positive spirit of trying to benefit the engineering community. I learn something almost every time he opens his mouth, and not just about microphones; he really stands for the best in the profession.

Anyway, even the 1-meter approach that I described is NOT what the relevant standards say should be done; on-axis frequency response measurement is supposed to be "plane-wave," which means that NO proximity effect whatsoever should be included.

But no manufacturer on the committee has ever stepped forward to say that they do it or will do it, and the commercial reason for this is clear: The low-frequency end of a properly drawn curve for a directional microphone would appear to have less bass that way, while all their competitors are using 1-meter curves, which appear to show a stronger low-frequency response. A 12-inch or 30-cm curve shows even more flattering low-frequency response on axis--but that is not what you will actually pick up, unless you are really using the microphone at those distances and the sound sources are point sources.

This matters even more with a figure-8 because (a) figure-8s generally have about twice as much proximity effect as cardioids (the attached excerpt below is from an excellent Neumann technical paper from about 50 years ago), and (b) figure-8s are often used as the "S" microphone in an M/S pair, and good low-frequency response in the "S" channel is critical to the sense of spaciousness in a recording.

[aaronji]

By the way, DPA does pretty much the same thing; as a result, the frequency response graphs for their directional microphones can't be compared to those of most other manufacturers unless you deduct for the added proximity effect at 30 cm, which is the distance they generally use. That's actually very close to 12", so I guess you could compare A-T's curves to DPA's--but not to anyone else's.

While their frequency response graphs are at 30 centimeters, in fairness to DPA, they also provide a "proximity effect exhibited by DPA 401x" graph for at least some of the mics (4011 and 4015)...

[DSatz]

aaronji: Thanks for pointing that out. I'll look for that.

Original poster: To get back to your original question, apart from severe physical shocks, the main risk to a ribbon mike is having air currents pass through it. As others have mentioned, a good packing job will minimize the shock if the package is dropped. And A-T has done a good thing to help prevent air from blowing through the ribbon assembly: They provide a clear plastic sleeve that slips over the receiving end of the mike, that keeps air from passing through and keeps dirt and any metal particles from getting into the ribbon assembly. So with any luck, you should be OK shipping the mike.

Also, at the AES show this past October I asked a contact at A-T whether their U.S. headquarters in Ohio has the facilities to test and repair the microphone in case of any accidents, and she assured me that they can do that.

--best regards

[pohaku]

The AEA R84 works great on saxes.  The other sax mic of choice is a EV RE20 - especially if you are playing out.  Big and ugly, but they are hardy and sound great.

[connloyalist]

The other sax mic of choice is a Shure RE20

Please excuse my confusion, but do you mean the Electro Voice RE20, or the Shure KSM313/353?

Regards, Christine

[pohaku]

My bad.  I mean the EV.  Too much sleep deprivation.  Not a ribbon, but a great vocal and instrument mic, especially for sax and brass.

[connloyalist]

Talking about the EV RE20, is this one, visible at the start of this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQdClQEsQXc

Aside, the flugelhorn player (Ack van Rooyen), is 80 years old in that clip. Isn't it amazing that he could still play like that at 80!

Regards, Christine

[pohaku]

Yes, that's an EV RE-20.  In the scheme of things, they are pretty affordable.  They run @ $250-350 used.  One of the two classic broadcasting mics (along with the Shure SM7).  Mine is currently loaned out to my daughter's sax teacher.  He has my R84 as well, but prefers the RE-20 which is about one third the price, and considerably more rugged, especially for gigging.  I've only used it for close micing, not at any significant distance for ensemble work.  So I'm not sure how well that would work in that regard.  It might work fine, but I don't know.  i have just not used it that way.  As a dynamic mic, you will need a decent preamp for it.  For recording a group, I think I would still be inclined to use a pair of condensers and then use something like the RE-20 for spot micing horns or saxes.  Depends on how many tracks you have available to you.