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Author Topic: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?  (Read 3038 times)

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Offline fotoralf.be

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How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« on: June 07, 2014, 04:04:01 PM »
I've tried M/S stereo with a pair of Beringer B2 Pro and it doesn't work. Apparently, their figure 8 pattern isn't symmetrical enough. The same goes for the pair of Rode NT-2A that I've bought afterwards. Several online source say mostly the same. The phantom sources tend to wander and the whole soundstage is unstable and badly defined.

Now, with the SP LSD2 being basically in the same class, is there someone here who has experience with it for M/S? Is it any better?

Ralf
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Re: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 04:58:41 PM »
The phantom sources tend to wander and the whole soundstage is unstable and badly defined.

The LSD2/BSCS-L/etc are all dual-diaphragm capsules, so that's a ding there. The best ones will be singles that do something special to deduce which side of the diaphragm the incoming signal is on (neumann km120 comes to mind, the schoeps mk8 might be another).

When I had a BSCS-L, I noticed that the soundstage could be unbalanced, but I didn't notice stuff wander (which would indicate that polarization is changing over a span of time. Not unheard of, just infrequent). If these are characteristics that are important to you, and it looks like they are based on the above comment, then I think you're looking at something else. Getting a proper fig8 pattern is not the easiest pattern to accomplish it seems.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2014, 01:09:37 AM »
Nothing prevents a dual-diaphragm figure-8 from having a highly symmetrical pattern, but it requires a willingness on the manufacturer's part to select capsules with very precisely matched front and back sensitivity, and--the part that evidently hurts too much for most of them--the willingness to reject capsules that don't have this characteristic. In the intensely price-driven market that most non-professional microphones (especially those from Asia) are part of, that's just not economically feasible. The manufacturers know that most people only use multi-pattern microphones as cardioids, so they don't risk (say) doubling the price to make the figure-8 pattern really good. However, for M/S to work, the side-facing microphone must be a true figure-8, with two lobes of equal sensitivity in opposite polarity to one another, and a response null midway between them, where little or no sound is picked up.

Some other microphone patterns, such as hypercardioid, are also "bidirectional" in that they have two lobes of opposite polarity with a "null" between them--but the lobes in those patterns don't have equal sensitivity, and the null occurs at angles other than 90 degrees. There's a direct geometric correspondence: The more sensitive the front lobe is relative to the rear lobe, the farther back the "null" occurs, and if the front lobe is less sensitive than the rear lobe, then the farther forward the null will be (plus then you basically have your microphone facing backwards). For a hypercardioid, where the rear lobe is 6 dB less sensitive than the front lobe, the null occurs at 110 degrees. For a supercardioid, with a rear lobe nearly 12 dB less sensitive than the front lobe, the null occurs at around 126 degrees. Theoretically you could imagine a cardioid as a "bidirectional" microphone with a rear lobe of 0 sensitivity (which is as low as it can possibly be), so the null is at 180 degrees (which is as far to the back as it can possibly be).

And if the two halves of a bidirectional capsule have unequal frequency response, then at each particular frequency the pattern will have a different shape, and the null will fall at a different angle. So the response at 90 degrees might be well nulled out at some frequencies but not others. That's bad for M/S as well.

Truth be told, though, nothing about a single-diaphragm figure-8 capsule design automatically guarantees it a symmetrical pattern, either; the single-diaphragm design removes some of the main variables that can throw things out of symmetry, but not all of them. Anyway, good single-diaphragm figure-8 condenser microphones are available from Schoeps, Neumann and Sennheiser for certain, and there may be others that I don't know about.

There are also reasonably small ribbon figure-8s from Beyer, Royer and more recently Audio-Technica that might be worth considering for indoor recording. They may offer better low-frequency response without electronic equalization--and low-frequency response is very important to the sense of spaciousness in an M/S stereo recording. On the other hand, a good figure-8 condenser microphone can be equalized so that its low-frequency response extends as far and as smoothly as you might ever want for music recording, since the response below the "turnover frequency" rolls off at a very predictable 6 dB/octave rate.

--best regards
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 08:21:26 PM by DSatz »
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Offline fotoralf.be

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Re: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2014, 10:38:51 AM »
Nothing prevents a dual-diaphragm figure-8 from having a highly symmetrical pattern, but it requires a willingness on the manufacturer's part to select capsules with very precisely matched front and back sensitivity, and--the part that evidently hurts too much for most manufacturers--the willingness to reject capsules that don't have this characteristic. In the intensely price-driven market that most non-professional microphones (especially those from Asia) are part of, that's just not economically feasible.

Point well taken. I'll save my money.

Thanks.

Ralf
Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

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Re: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2014, 06:14:08 PM »
I have a Peluso P-stereo LDC which has worked well for M/S in the past, although it currently has some gounding issues and needs a service tune-up.  Actually I mostly use it as a close vocal and/or acoustic guitar microphone as it works really well for that. 

I think these are intended more as stereo spot or close-microphones.

For full band/ensemble stereo recording I most often used it in a M/S configuration for a few reasons.  First, like the other switchable-pattern stereo LDC microphones you mentioned, The P-Stereo is limited to cardioid, omni and figure-8 patterns, so M/S with a cardioid mid is the only way to get a crossed supercardioid-like pattern out of it, which I find to be a more useful coincident configuration for band/ensemble stereo recording than X/Y cardioids or 8s.  Blumlien is usually too omnidirectional in the horizontal plane and even widely angled coincident cardioids are flat and dimensionally boring unless spiced up in combination with spaced omnis or spots + ambient mics or something.

The P-stereo may be a step above the microphones mentioned in terms of it's capsule matching but it certainly doesn't have top European pedigree manufacturer quality standards.  I've wondered why none of these non-pedigree microphones provide a supercardioid pattern option, and now realize the answer is probably cost.  That would be very useful in that it would allow for either X/Y crossed supercardioids, or M/S with a supercardioid mid providing a crossed hypercardioid-like option that could make for a useful alternative to Blumlein by having just enough forward bias to be a lot more practical.

Thanks for the insight into the degree of capsule-matching tolerance required for these to work well as a main stereo microphone, DSatz.
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Re: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2014, 04:18:54 AM »
When I had an LSD2, I never thought of it as being not symmetrical.
https://archive.org/details/tbk2008-05-15.lsd2.flac16f
https://archive.org/details/delf2008-04-19.lsd2.flac16
https://archive.org/details/delf2008-02-22.lsd2.flac16f
https://archive.org/details/gptn2008-02-23.lsd2.flac16f

I've used AKG414's and ADK-TL's mid/side many times as well, and while I won't argue the the possibility they aren't symmetrical, I'll say they are "good enough" that I never noticed.  My daughter's AT4050ST is internally a M/S mic which puts out optional XY psuedo pattern, and I expect they paid close attention to component matching in this case; anyway, I've never noticed anything off with that.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2014, 07:28:34 PM »
SmokinJoe, it's a matter of probabilities and how you understand them. Some samples of a given model of switchable-pattern microphone will have a better figure-8 pattern than other samples of the same model; others will have worse. Some samples of a given model of stereo microphone will have a better match between their channels; others, less so. When you own one microphone of a certain type, how reliable is your assumption that other people's microphones, of the same make and model, are the same as yours?

It all depends on the manufacturer's quality control standards, which aren't (as a rule) transparent to the customers. Some companies that offer "matched pairs" of microphones make me smile, since it's up to each manufacturer to set their own criteria for pair matching, and those criteria are almost never disclosed. A pair of microphones from manufacturer A could have twice as much difference between them as a randomly-chosen (not matched) pair from manufacturer B, and still meet company A's criteria for pair matching. The same applies to the halves of a dual-diaphragm capsule, and to the two capsules in a stereo microphone as well as the two channels of internal circuitry (although the capsules generally vary more than the circuitry).

--best regards
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Offline fotoralf.be

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Re: How good is M/S with the SP LSD2?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 08:39:58 AM »
Some companies that offer "matched pairs" of microphones make me smile

And some of them are an outright laugh. Espcially when one of two capsules fails during the warraty period and the manufacturer replaces it with a random capsule claiming that their tolerances are so close that no matching is required. It should be noted that at the time when I bought it the matched pair was more expensive than two individual mics of the same type.

Ralf
Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

 

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