Topic: matrix mix for newbies

[longtooth devil]

I've been reading and learning a lot. Thanks for all the great discussion so far. I'm very interested in matrix mixing, and here's what I think I'd like to try. (feel free to correct errors in my techincall language)

Run SBD<UA-5<JB3 .... post production mix with that with ... stereo mic<PortaDAT

with the stereo mic, I'm envisioning myself taping (with permission) from the front row of a crowded, rowdy concert. I'd like to pan the mic to catch 75% stage 25% crowd. The mic could either be placed on stage or hand held. I'd have the stage mic mounted on a Windjammer suspension system and have experience standing still for long periods of time as to avoid mic noise

Assuming I can get front access and permission, how doable do you think this is?

I can edit using Cool Edit Pro and understand there may need to be some streching or such done. But with this thread though, I'm really asking about gathering the sound.

[Scuba Jeremy]

In all honesty, I'm terrible at mixing sources myself. I've tried a few times, and in the end it just frustrates me. Most of the time when I matrix shows, I run mics on either side of the band, on the stage, facing the audience on an angle. That seems to catch what the band is putting out there that might not be very strong on the board, and also gets some nice crowd reaction. I run that into the front end of my UA5, and run the board feed into the back analog RCA jacks. Then mix to taste between the mics and board feed. Done.

I know it's a lot harder to get it right in the field, but damn if the post work isn't easier. Many folks here prefer mixing two sources to get their matrixes, but the hardest part is the clock synching. So yeah, stretching and lining things up needs to be done, and to be honest, I just don't know much about that. Sorry.

[jpschust]

jeremy, the way you said you've done it presents real issues to me.  if you spread mics over 5-10 ft and if there is any front - back of the room differential you are going to get very odd phasing.  not to mention you are going to have a big gap in your stereo image.  best to run a stereo config in the sweet spot of the room and take a sbd and then line up later.  its not too terribly difficult but it takes a little work.  

[longtooth devil]

I was kind of concerned about risking a mix on the fly but it would make it tons easier. However, I do want two separate recordings if possible and am looking to make both sound as good as possible.

JPSChust I think I understand your point. I was really interested in getting a distinct recording of the crowd ... which is why I wanted to stand up front. Would you're set up do better. Never tried either before. I'm going to read more on mics now.

[jpschust]

i think its easier to do to be honest, calculating that distance correctly on the fly is a pain. doing it in software is why we have mastering :-)

[Scuba Jeremy]

jeremy, the way you said you've done it presents real issues to me.  if you spread mics over 5-10 ft and if there is any front - back of the room differential you are going to get very odd phasing.  not to mention you are going to have a big gap in your stereo image.  best to run a stereo config in the sweet spot of the room and take a sbd and then line up later.  its not too terribly difficult but it takes a little work.  

I'm not talking about running the mics as far away as the board, but if you have the ability to work with the band and record from anywhere you want, it's just damn easy to set up your equipment near the stage and record the music. If you want to record the room, yeah, set up a set in the back and line up two sources either, and I'll let you be the guy to spend a few days in post to line up two seperately clocked sources.

I've never had an issue with doing a live mix on the spot with house mics on/near the stage and a direct board feed.

O.A.R. Mix Sample
Carbon Leaf Mix Sample

I know this thread is all about gathering the source sounds, but is there a "Matrix Post Production for Dummies" thread somewhere on how to line up two sources? I just can't figure that crap out.

[dsanders79]

Ok I have done a couple of mixes myself after the fact.  I have used cakewalk in the past.  It is fairly easy to do, just a little trial and error.  Basicly there are two steps once you have the wave files loaded.  First at the beginning of the files line them up (some of the few test drum hits before the band even starts works pretty good).  Basicly leave one source alone and then just move one source forward and backward using the visuals and listen of course.  Once you are content that the front is lined up like you want, go to the very end of the two sources.  If you zoom in you should pretty easily be able to see that the wavs no longer match up (if you listen you will probably be able to hear it too).  Using the rulers figure out the difference between the two files (I suggest find a drum beat here again).  I then stretched the shorter slightly to make up the difference.  Listen and make sure it sounds alright, I did a little undo, and restretch to different lengths just to make sure I was hearing it correctly, and I had it right.  Once you are happy, mix to taste, mix down to one wav file, split and spread it.  For me deciding how I wanted it mixed was the hardest part.  Good luck, I hope this helps and makes some sense.

[cbd]

being a special ed student when it comes to computers all the matrixes I've done (usually with Carrington) have been at the show. I bought a Mackie 1202 for cheap on Ebay & we have had some good experiences making matrixes for several Drive By Truckers shows & a bunch of otehr shows at Alley Katz & the Canal Club in Richmond.

[aberg]

I'm trying a mix right now of a Vorcza Trio show using Adobe Audition. We'll see how it turns out. The source is:

Superlux SMK-H8K/C > Canare Star Quads > UA-5 > JB3

+

SBD (mono) > JB3

I'll probably post it up on bt.etree.org

[hexyjones]

Ok I have done a couple of mixes myself after the fact.  I have used cakewalk in the past.  It is fairly easy to do, just a little trial and error.  Basicly there are two steps once you have the wave files loaded.  First at the beginning of the files line them up (some of the few test drum hits before the band even starts works pretty good).  Basicly leave one source alone and then just move one source forward and backward using the visuals and listen of course.  Once you are content that the front is lined up like you want, go to the very end of the two sources.  If you zoom in you should pretty easily be able to see that the wavs no longer match up (if you listen you will probably be able to hear it too).  Using the rulers figure out the difference between the two files (I suggest find a drum beat here again).  I then stretched the shorter slightly to make up the difference.  Listen and make sure it sounds alright, I did a little undo, and restretch to different lengths just to make sure I was hearing it correctly, and I had it right.  Once you are happy, mix to taste, mix down to one wav file, split and spread it.  For me deciding how I wanted it mixed was the hardest part.  Good luck, I hope this helps and makes some sense.

Same timing issues here....a few songs down the line, the tracks wont line up...

the questions I have are:

If I use identical A/Ds - will I still have timing issues...?

What are the drawbacks of stretching the wav? And should you stretch the SBD or the AUD...seems like the SBD would be more forgiving...

[Tim]

RE: Identical A/D's

you will still have timing issues unless you can sync their word clock's

[wbrisette]

Same timing issues here....a few songs down the line, the tracks wont line up...

I have done this a few time myself. It's a hassle and quite honestly sometimes not worth the work. I end up breaking shows during songs and realigning them. It can be quite tedious.

the questions I have are:

If I use identical A/Ds - will I still have timing issues...?

Yes, it's not all the A/D, it's tape speed when using DAT or any other tape. You have to clock both sources from the same clock. One of your machines must be the master clock, the other the slave.

The other method of course is to use timecode, which really is just another form of word clocking. There are some good books on timecode if you're interested... Look at Time Code Primer by Spars, and also Timecode: A User's Guide by J.D. Ratcliff. JD's book goes into more timecode areas such as MIDI  clocking.

What are the drawbacks of stretching the wav? And should you stretch the SBD or the AUD...seems like the SBD would be more forgiving...

I don't ever stretch. I use the chop up into multiple parts method. When you stretch you have the possibility of changing the pitch. While this might be quite small, it's still a possibility. I use the longest waveform as my guide, then cut the smaller one into the multiple parts.

I have to do some more shows now where I use both SBD and mics now that I have the option of using up to 8 channels all clocked from the same source. The nice thing now is I just put the tracks into my DAW and tell them to go to their original timecode (my HD recorder always includes timecode on the source, so now it's so much easier to work with then before) and all the tracks line up properly without any fuss. However, there is a price you must pay (and I mean money) for timecode. As more film sound guys are getting HD recorders with timecode, they are letting go of their timecode DAT recorders, however, these are still close to a grand for a used one. The bad part is unless you have equipment that lets you use timecode everywhere, you just spent a ton of money for something that you can't use.

Anyhow, hope some of this is of use to you.

Wayne