Topic: non-deadend stealthy mic & pre suggestions for R9 +future opinions?

[Gutbucket]

Hey all,  Looking for recomendations, perhaps confirmation. call it what you will.  (admins, I'm not quite sure where to post: here, recorders, or ask the tapers.. move if appropriate)

Here's my deal..

Since my old cassette 4track days in the mid 80's I've picked up alot of audio engineering book learnin' & theory but not so much hands-on, recording experience with decent gear. Looking for a mobile, good sound quality setup for general recording purposes.  All agree one rig can't do everything well.. so here are my priorities:

1- sketch pad/training tool for practicing solo guitar (fingerpicking acoustic primarily) for self-feedback on technique & help figuring arrangements & song writing.

2- mobile rig for capturing acoustic guitar, banjo, mandolin, maybe some hand percussion jams when I can get together with friends now dispersed all over the country a few times a year (who knows where, maybe in the woods).

3- stealth rig for recording acts mainly in small venues (bars/clubs/auditoriums/the occasinal church- some very good sounding and all available with good positions DFC FOB) as well as moving frequently between stages at outdoor festivals (primarily acoustic jazz/bluegrass/americana but also some bass heavy electric stuff).  Ability to patch-in to open tapers with quality mic setups is of course a plus.

4- Mobile recording setup for capturing campsite jams at festivals.

5- general ambience nature recordings.

So I'm asking about mics, pre if needed, & recorder.


Constraints:

1- Money of course, got to keep it between $1&2 grand total for now, like to keep it around $1500. I prefer buying quality pieces that will last and remain valuable as my kit grows.

2- Should be a relatively simple to use, small & mobile setup. 

3- I'm a guy who loves multi-purpose, compact gear.  Comes from living in a campervan for 2 years in the early 90's I suppose.

4- Sound quality has to be very good.  I hate crappy tapes! I've protected my hearing from years of countless shows and I enjoy using it.


What I've got & what I'm thinking of:

1- I've ordered a R-9 from Sound Professionals (which shipped today, yes! ) as I'm attending a guitar camp at Swannanoa in Asheville at the end of July and I need a recorder to document the classes and capture some evening playing.

2- Thinking of picking up a pair of DPA4060's (thinking I'd prefer the 60's over the 61's for lower self noise on my not so loud acoustic guitar stuff) and perhaps a MMA6000 into the R-9.  The DPA's seem well respected and versatile for both stereo micing and close acoustic instrument placement.  My reasoning is that I can use the R-9 as a simple sketch pad with the built in mics, or use the 4060's to record headmounted HRTF, use them close mic'd on instruments or on a homebuilt J-disk.  Though the jury is certainly still out on the pre's in the R-09 and the most optimal and cost effective way of connecting the 4060's>R9, I'm thinking I'll need the MMA6000 for nice clean gain + mic power on my wide dynamic & transient rich acoustic stuff.  Could possibly substitute Chris Church's DPA capable pre for some cost savings if it compares favorably to the MMA.

Laptop is coming my way that I'll be able to use to dump recordings, archive to FLAC and edit.  I'll probably pick up a USB interface (suggestions? WIN) and a decent sounding mic for my vocals if needed before too long to do some small-scale multitracking.  I can of course pick up additional pieces over time to extend use of this kit for those multitrack/close mic'ed style home or local recordings such as DPA extension cables & microdot/phantom adaptors.  /extended ramble off/  So whadayathink?

You guys are experienced out the wazoo and I've found no more valuable resource than this forum, thanks for making it what it is. I've reached 40, but when I grow up I want to tape stuff like Moke & Teddy, love that quality acoustic stuff.

[Will_S]

It sounds like you are on the right track.

My only caveats would be with regards to:

"3- stealth rig for recording acts mainly in small venues (bars/clubs/auditoriums/the occasinal church- some very good sounding and all available with good positions DFC FOB) as well as moving frequently between stages at outdoor festivals (primarily acoustic jazz/bluegrass/americana but also some bass heavy electric stuff).  Ability to patch-in to open tapers with quality mic setups is of course a plus.

4- Mobile recording setup for capturing campsite jams at festivals."

Two minor issues.  If you can count on always being in the sweet spot, and not having a chatty crowd, the 406Xs will probably give you the best sound for the dollar.  But if you do get stuck in a bad spot, or in a chatty venue, cards or even hypers can be very good things to have.  To my ears, cards or hypers can make a listenable tape out of a situation where omnis are unlistenable.  On the other hand, while omnis can beat cards in the sweet spot, I've never heard a tape where, to my ears, cards made an unlistenable recording where omnis would have worked.

For festivals, you might want something with a little more storage capacity than the R9.  To my understanding it is only confirmed to work with 2 gig memory cards, although 4 gig cards may work.  With a couple cards, you can make it through a festival, but could well run out of space or be spending a lot of money to capture a multi-day festival.  So you might also want to consider a hard-drive based unit.

Within your budget you could also manage something like

AT853RX with card, hyper, and omni caps > digi-mod Edirol UA5 (which could also come in handy with the laptop recording you talked about) > Rockboxed iRiver.

Or you could get Audix micros (cards or hypers only) > UA5 > iRiver.

Most of the time, the DPA setup would probably sound better than these rigs.  But there are situations where this rig would sound better than (any) omnis, IMO.

[Gutbucket]

Understood.

Thanks for the input guys, you make some good points, Will.

I think I'm going with the DPA's as my primary interest is quality sound on my own personal guitar stuff, recording shows second, with natural spaciousnes quality highly valued.

I would really like to pick up some directional (card or hypercard) mics at some point to flush out the quiver and have some extra options out and about and at home, but I think I'll pick those up a bit down the road.  I do a pretty good job of getting into the sweet spot at most of the musical events I get to and luckily many of the more acoustic events have very quiet crowds, the funkier-rowdier stuff is more hit or miss blab-wise.

Chatty crowds really bug me when I'm at a performance.  It's just plain disrespectful of the artists and of the other people enjoying what is after all, primarily an auditory event! (my other hot button peeve is people not making the miniscule effort to use their turn signals when driving)  Perhaps suprisingly, the chatty crowd syndrome bothers me more when I'm at a performance than if I'm listening to a recording of one.  It's almost as if at that point the extraneous crowd stuff is part of the recorded 'event'.

Interesting suggestion on the rockboxed Iriver, I did consider that route, but I needed to get something quick and trouble-free out of the box before the end of the month. The R-09 should be here any day- I was hoping it would be here before this weekend.  Lack of digital in is more of an issue for me with the R-09 than storage space (assuming 4GB is eventually supported) as I get back to camp often throughout the day at the festivals I go to and can then offload to the laptop then as needed.  Good point about the ability to use a modded UA5 with either a portable device or laptop.  Wondering if the R-09 will feed a digital signal out the usb interface to the laptop while in record mode (or record pause) as a makshift stereo usb computer interface.  I think not, but that would be a great firmware update considering Roland's target market I'd think. The ability to use the R-09 on it's own with the internal mics or without an external pre is also compelling for stuff that needn't be top quality.

Out of curiosity and forward thinking, how do the AT853 and Audix card and hyper caps compare in your opinion?  Both plug in power I assume?  Any possibility of building the appropriate cables with a micro dot end and using either of those with the MMA6000?  Anyone actually doing that around here?

[hyperplane]

Interesting suggestion on the rockboxed Iriver, I did consider that route, but I needed to get something quick and  Wondering if the R-09 will feed a digital signal out the usb interface to the laptop while in record mode (or record pause) as a makshift stereo usb computer interface.  I think not, but that would be a great firmware update considering Roland's target market I'd think.

This is an excellent idea. I actually emailed Roland/Edirol with this very same idea (the "analog-to-digital pass-through" idea) regarding the R-1. But when they replied, they said there were no plans to do anything further with the R-1.

The only downside I can think of, about this ADC pass-through with the R-09 is: in order to plug anything into the USB port on the R-09, the flimsy battery door on the bottom of the unit has to be slid in a partially "opened" state, and that would make me feel very iffy. The battery door/USB port issue is the only thing that disappoints me thus far about the R-09's physical design; I would love it if the battery door had a small hole for the USB port to have open access.

[Will_S]

Out of curiosity and forward thinking, how do the AT853 and Audix card and hyper caps compare in your opinion?  Both plug in power I assume?  Any possibility of building the appropriate cables with a micro dot end and using either of those with the MMA6000?  Anyone actually doing that around here?

First the easier part of the question:  Audix Micros are phantom powered.  The AT853 family sounds best if phantom powered as well, but can be purchased (either as AT mics, or through Sound Professionals as SP-CMC-4 mics) or hacked to work off a variety of power sources.  Phantom-only is an option, switchable phantom / plug-in (or 9V battery box) is an option, or you can talk to Chris at Church Audio about a 9V battery powered preamp that provides power through a 3-wire connection.  There is also a hack (search the Microphones and setup board here) to improve the SPL handling while still using a 9V battery box powering scheme.  It might well be able to hack a cable onto the AT853s that would run into the MMA6000, I'd ask Chris Church.

As to which sounds better...it's hard to say.  Myself, I run the Sound Professionals version of the AT853s, with card or hyper capsules depending on the situation.  I run them off a 9V battery box and they sound fine to me that way, but I don't tape in really high SPL situations and am looking into a 3-wire mod for the future.

I'm looking at the Audix micros as a possible upgrade, but based on the tapes I've heard I'm not fully convinced they're sufficiently superior to the AT853s to be worth their price, especially at the new retail price.  Comparing the low end of what I've heard from tapes made with each mic, the poorer AT853 tapes are significantly worse than the worst Audix micro tapes I've heard.  (Then again, the average AT853 taper probably has less experience and is using a lesser preamp etc. than the average Audix taper.)  But on the better end, I've heard very good tapes from both kinds of mics.  I think unless a great deal on the Audix Micros comes along I'll be fully satisfied with my AT853s until I can afford some Schoeps.

As an occasional alternate/supplement for the DPAs, I'd probably save my money and go with the AT853s.  You'd have to factor the cost of a phantom power unit into the cost of the Audix Micros, whereas the 9V battery box would probably provide adequate SPL handling whenever you were far enough away to need cards/hypers.

[poorlyconditioned]

Out of curiosity and forward thinking, how do the AT853 and Audix card and hyper caps compare in your opinion?  Both plug in power I assume?  Any possibility of building the appropriate cables with a micro dot end and using either of those with the MMA6000?  Anyone actually doing that around here?

First the easier part of the question:  Audix Micros are phantom powered.  The AT853 family sounds best if phantom powered as well, but can be purchased (either as AT mics, or through Sound Professionals as SP-CMC-4 mics) or hacked to work off a variety of power sources.  Phantom-only is an option, switchable phantom / plug-in (or 9V battery box) is an option, or you can talk to Chris at Church Audio about a 9V battery powered preamp that provides power through a 3-wire connection.  There is also a hack (search the Microphones and setup board here) to improve the SPL handling while still using a 9V battery box powering scheme.  It might well be able to hack a cable onto the AT853s that would run into the MMA6000, I'd ask Chris Church.

As to which sounds better...it's hard to say.  Myself, I run the Sound Professionals version of the AT853s, with card or hyper capsules depending on the situation.  I run them off a 9V battery box and they sound fine to me that way, but I don't tape in really high SPL situations and am looking into a 3-wire mod for the future.

I'm looking at the Audix micros as a possible upgrade, but based on the tapes I've heard I'm not fully convinced they're sufficiently superior to the AT853s to be worth their price, especially at the new retail price.  Comparing the low end of what I've heard from tapes made with each mic, the poorer AT853 tapes are significantly worse than the worst Audix micro tapes I've heard.  (Then again, the average AT853 taper probably has less experience and is using a lesser preamp etc. than the average Audix taper.)  But on the better end, I've heard very good tapes from both kinds of mics.  I think unless a great deal on the Audix Micros comes along I'll be fully satisfied with my AT853s until I can afford some Schoeps.

As an occasional alternate/supplement for the DPAs, I'd probably save my money and go with the AT853s.  You'd have to factor the cost of a phantom power unit into the cost of the Audix Micros, whereas the 9V battery box would probably provide adequate SPL handling whenever you were far enough away to need cards/hypers.

I'll chime in for the AT853 too.  They are great for a beginner because you can play with mic patterns (XY, ORTF, spaced, etc) and various capsules (hypers, subcards, omnis).  And you will always have these as a stealth and/or backup pair once you buy something new.  I would start out with the standard cardioid pair, as they are the best compromise for concert recording.  You will *really* notice a difference between cards and omnis for bad sounding and/or chatty rooms.  Another thing to consider is stuff like bar or dinner noises from another part of the room.  These can often be more annoying than crowd noise IMO.

  Richard