Topic: Hypers/Cards/Omnis.... say what now?

[greppson]

What's the difference between all the types of caps out there? In what situations (show size/venue/etc) should be used? Obviously my ears may like one cap better than yours, but figured I would ask.

So?

[RebelRebel]

http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip2.htm

there are no "set rules" for choosing the pattern.  anyone that tells you there are set rules is wrong.

[Chuck]

Here's another link:

www.dpamicrophones.com/

good stuff to read.

[db]

http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip2.htm

there are no "set rules" for choosing the pattern.  anyone that tells you there are set rules is wrong.

well....

it depends on what you're after. if you want a specific result, there will be rules. use an omni in madison sq garden and you're going to get a type of sound. you cannot get around physics, it defines all.

[RebelRebel]

http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip2.htm

there are no "set rules" for choosing the pattern.  anyone that tells you there are set rules is wrong.

well....

it depends on what you're after. if you want a specific result, there will be rules. use an omni in madison sq garden and you're going to get a type of sound. you cannot get around physics, it defines all.

nor can you get around the fact that people like different things. because everyones ears are so different, there simply are no rules. there are general "suggestions" but nothing in stone. say you tell me not to use omnis in madison sq. garden, but what if i like that sound? who is anyone to tell me that what I like is wrong?..this is why "rules" cannot exist in real world application.

[db]

http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip2.htm

there are no "set rules" for choosing the pattern.  anyone that tells you there are set rules is wrong.

well....

it depends on what you're after. if you want a specific result, there will be rules. use an omni in madison sq garden and you're going to get a type of sound. you cannot get around physics, it defines all.

nor can you get around the fact that people like different things. because everyones ears are so different, there simply are no rules. there are general "suggestions" but nothing in stone. say you tell me not to use omnis in madison sq. garden, but what if i like that sound? who is anyone to tell me that what I like is wrong?..this is why "rules" cannot exist in real world application.

the only peoples' ears that are that different, from the standpoint of what mics to use, are those who are deaf/tone deaf. there are diffs between young and old, men and women...but those differences are regarding frequency perception = better in the young and female.

if it is is your purpose to capture the sound of a band in msg, you use cards or hypers becasue they'll reduce a lot of the effect of the room. if it is your purpose to try and show what happens to sound in a giant cavern like msg...then, yes, use your omnis. of course i cannot think of a rational reason why anyone would want to for the prupose of listening pleasure -- perhaps you are an engineer? and you are being asked to redesign the room? then you'd be well/better served with an omni. it would be unlistenable, but that was not the purpose of the recording.

now, onto your question: if you like the sound of an msg omni tape? i'd say you're lying to bolster a bs argument on taperssection dot com.

[RebelRebel]

icannot think of a rational reason why anyone would want to for the prupose of listening pleasure --  it would be unlistenable, but that was not the purpose of the recording.

now, onto your question: if you like the sound of an msg omni tape? i'd say you're lying to bolster a bs argument on taperssection dot com.

I dont need to bolster any argument. Your statements above are purely subjective.  "better" or "listenable" is impossible to quantify.. your statements also assume that everyone here or everyone who tapes has similar tastes as you.I doubt that is true.  Know the facts about polar patterns, make an educated "guess" as to what would work out, but be open to the idea that another pattern may sound better. The only rule that has practical application each and every time is to use your ears, and never base ANY decision off of others concepts of what you should use. Like I said, some may like the sound of an OMNI tape in a stadium(whether you can grasp that or not is irrelevant, people are strange).  Besides...there are NEVER any constants in audio recording..climate, atmospheric pressure, room density, room population, food youve eaten, drugs youve taken, alcohol consumption, etc...ALL factor in. The room may sound a certain way one night, and the next night, due to any number of factors, sound fairly different.

I respectfully disagree. My 2c, over and out.

Teddy

[RebelRebel]

also..to the orginal poster..more reference info
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.0
Must Read Books...Also, be sure to peruse the  the Audio Engineering Society's Internet Archive. (AES)...there is a fee, but it is well worth it. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/ I have learned a lot from snooping around there..
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

Sound Recording Handbook
Master Handbook of Acoustics
Behind The Glass
Total Recording
Tape Recorders
Sound recording practice
Professional Microphone Techniques
Principles of Digital Audio
The New Stereo Soundbook
The Microphone book
On Location Recording Techniques
Electroacoustical Reference Handbook
Audio Engineering
Handbook of Recording Engineering
Audio Dictionary
Handbook of Recording Engineering
From tinfoil to Stereo, a history of recording
Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook
Mastering Audio
The Mixing Engineer's Handbook

[Brian Skalinder]

Generally speaking, many tapers use hypers/cards/omnis as follows:

• omnis - provide a very open, natural sound, with no real attenuation of the surrounding environment;  typically used on-stage or fairly close to the sound source in a good sounding environment in which one is not concerned about the environment (crappy venue acoustics, loud audience, etc.)
  
• cards - kind of the all-purpose pattern for many tapers, commonly used in a variety of situations (on-stage, FOB, from the "tapers section", etc.);  not as open and natural a sound as omnis, but not as closed or colored sounding as hypers;  the pattern helps reject some of the crappy room acoustics and / or obnoxious audience;  many tapers start off with (or use only) cards because they're quite flexible, providing some of the pros (as well as some of the cons) of both omnis and hypers, and they may not have the budget to buy multiple sets of mics or caps to include multiple patterns in their mic arsenal
  
• hypers - better off-axis rejection than cards, but not as open or natural sounding as cards (which in turn are not as open or natural sounding as omnis);  due to the off-axis rejection, often used to help minimize an unpleasant environment (e.g. crappy venue acoustics or obnoxious crowd) or less than ideal location (too far back, hypers will help the recording sound closer to the source);
  
  

Keep in mind that even within each mic pattern, different configurations may yield significantly different results.  For example, cards ORTF may sound noticeably different than simply pointing the mics at the stacks.  All that said, it really does depend on what one's own ears like to hear - different people have different tolerances for how much crowd noise is irritating on playback, or different preferences for the balance between openness and naturalness one likes to hear in a recording v. the crowd noise and/or venue acoustics.

In some ways, I think db and Teddy are both correct:  physics essentially determines the results based on environment, pattern, configuration, etc., and many people prefer similar sonic characteristics in their recordings (db), all else being equal (e.g. environment) different people may (and often do) prefer different results as a function of different mics, patterns, configs, etc. (Teddy).

[db]

i think that within reason, the subjective argument holds. that is,  until someone decides to run onstage with shotguns.... or under the balcony at the beacon wth omnis. or name your bad choice. these will produce results so foul i'm just it buying it; that it's a one man's trash vs. treasure situation.

i realize that there's a lot of room for reproducing different kinds of sound. but it ain't all relative == some recordings are simply better than others (objectively) as are mics, recrding devices, speakers, etc. just because someone says they like it, does not make it Good.

in my forays into the world of bit-torrent i discovered that i'm in a minority of those that feel this way.  no biggie.

[RebelRebel]

just because someone says they like it, does not make it Good.

that is where you are wrong. it does make it good to them! If you dont like it, ok. but dont sit there and say that your ears/ideas of what is good hold dominion.  a bad choice to you may not be a bad choice to someone else. there is no standard "good"...there is no objective. there is only individual taste, and subjective opinions...period. "good, better or best" are impossible to quantify, and anyone that thinks so is wrong.

Have a good evening. (really my last post in this thread)

[db]

just because someone says they like it, does not make it Good.

that is where you are wrong. it does make it good to them! If you dont like it, ok. but dont sit there and say that your ears/ideas of what is good hold dominion.  a bad choice to you may not be a bad choice to someone else. there is no standard "good"...there is no objective. there is only individual taste, and subjective opinions...period. "good, better or best" are impossible to quantify, and anyone that thinks so is wrong.

Have a good evening. (really my last post in this thread)

distortion is easily quantifiable. as is a shitty/no image. so is an overly bright/tinny recording, etc, etc. i'd hazard to guess that those that would defend such recordings as "good"  are doing so in order to defend something subjective; like their narrow knowledge of what a good recording is.

"sounds good to me" and "this is a good recording" are 2 wildly different claims.

[momule]

also..to the orginal poster..more reference info
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.0
Must Read Books...Also, be sure to peruse the  the Audio Engineering Society's Internet Archive. (AES)...there is a fee, but it is well worth it. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/ I have learned a lot from snooping around there..
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

Mastering Audio
The Mixing Engineer's Handbook


I think both of these are something most folks should check out.  I own both Books and have read them a couple times. This is what inspired me to start learning more and more over the last few years.

[greppson]

wow! thanks for the great responses. i am in awe of all this info.

guess i need to get it figured out before i do some shows in the next few weeks!

btw, i picked up a pair of audix m1290s with card and hyper caps. i'll be taping DMB down in VA in about a week and a half and then i'll be doing a lot more of the typical club shows up here(~1000 person venue).

[greppson]

So here's a sample from the DMB shows in Charlottesville, VA this past weekend.

Did stack taping so decided to go with the hypers the first night. I liked the tape so much, I ran them the second night as well. I'm planning on trying out the card caps at a YMSB show coming up in 2 weeks... maybe Umphreys Mcgee this weekend if I decide to go.

Here's a sample:

Audix m1290 w/hyper caps, A-B configuration, 14 feet, about 9 rows back from the stack.

(please disregard the seat tapper who added his own beat in the silent part of the recording)

http://www.greppson.net/taped/samples/dmb2006-09-23.shotgun.mp3