Topic: Not a newbie to taping but questions about upgrading

[Littlebit]

Hi Everyone...first post, after reading dozens and dozens of archived messages here over the past 2 days.

Background information: I've been a taper of varying degrees since the mid-1980's...back then, I devised a false bottom for my pocketbook to sneak my cassette tape recorder into venues and could flip and switch tapes in the dark and still lose less than 5 seconds of audio material in the process (grin).

Nowadays I'm a little more advanced...I have a Sharp MD-DR480H (http://minidisc.org/part_Sharp_MD-DR470+DR480+DR7.html), SP-TFB-2 microphones (standard sensitivity) (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2) and SP-SPSB-1 battery (no level control, no bass roll-off) which I plug into the mic in/plug in power on the MDR (I tried the optical/line in input by mistake once and totally messed up the recording).

The group I like to currently tape is an a cappella quintet who use their voices for the vocals as well as for the instruments. They use a sound board & technician to enhance their performance and their sound has been compared to a cross between Rockapella and Manhattan Transfer. One of the performers is their vocal "bass man" and he often, but not always, uses an octavizer to make him even more "bassy". After experiencing some HORRIBLY distortion (from bass and/or volume) when I first got the taping setup, I'm now the most successful if I tape their shows (usually 300-500 seat auditoriums and I'm usually sitting anywhere from 10 to 25 feet from the stage, dead center) on a recording level of "1" (my range is from 0 to 30) and then later use Audacity to make everything louder. This helps to avoid about 75% of the distortion but, being a perfectionist, I'd like to get rid of that other 25%, which I've observed is still mainly from when they're using the octavizer and/or making the sound louder (I don't know how loud they actually get...my ears never ring when the show is done, but when the bass with the octavizer is loud, your can feel the vibrations in your chest).

I've admittedly never played with any of the controls on the MDR, except to change the recording speed to LP because their shows tend to be longer than 74 or 80 minutes or however long a minidisc can record on SP speed (my hearing isn't good enough to notice a difference between SP and LP). From reading all the posts though, I'm thinking that a big part of my problem is lack of bass roll-off...am I correct? So if I were to get a new SP-SPSB-1 WITH the bass roll-off, would that help solve my problem? And if that were the case, what would I set the bass roll-off to and would I still plug the battery into the mic in input?

Or if I'm incorrect on how I think I can fix my problem, do you have any suggestions? (not including new microphones, if at all possible...the SP-TFB-2's work REALLY well for me from a stealth point of view).

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Littlebit]

Um..is there any more information I can give or should I be posting this in another forum, so that someone might be able to help me?

If just getting the bass rolloff wouldn't be good, is there anything else I should be doing instead?

Thanks!

[aberg]

I think if the music is loud enough, run line in rather than mic in... you are likely overloading the low-end mic pres in that MD recorder. Bass-roll off wouldn't hurt either. Definitely go line in though if the music is loud enough that you're recording.

[Littlebit]

Thanks!

I think the music might be loud enough "sometimes," but it's generally more on the quieter side and occasionally without microphones at all. I did mess up once and recordeded with Line In by mistake...got a bunch of next-to-nuthin' on the MD, but I'm pretty sure I was taping at my usual recording level of only "1." If I were to record with Line In and on a higher recording level (15? 30?), do you think that would help, for even when they don't use their microphones?

The next concert isn't until the end of December...I have time to go out in the field to practice but just want to figure out what changes I need to make to make this work right. FWIW, I'm even open to buying a whole new machine for recording, as long as it's easy to use and compatible with an Intel Mac.

Thanks for your help!

[Microbe]

I checked the ratings on your mics, if you can feel the bass thumping on your chest, it may be the mics are overloading.  I don't think it's the minidisc preamp distorting, but in order to record line in you'll need at least a battery box.  From info given on the Sound Professionals website this would raise your SPL rating a bit.  If I were you and you really want to keep that set of mics, I'd look into a preamp, maybe with bass rolloff (hopefully a minidisc user will jump in here).  That way you could record using line in, get some decent levels and supply power to the mics.

[aberg]

I checked the ratings on your mics, if you can feel the bass thumping on your chest, it may be the mics are overloading.  I don't think it's the minidisc preamp distorting, but in order to record line in you'll need at least a battery box.  From info given on the Sound Professionals website this would raise your SPL rating a bit.  If I were you and you really want to keep that set of mics, I'd look into a preamp, maybe with bass rolloff (hopefully a minidisc user will jump in here).  That way you could record using line in, get some decent levels and supply power to the mics.

Yeah, I was just going to suggest a chuch audio preamp as a good solution.

[Littlebit]

Thanks everyone!

'll start looking at preamps as an option, then. Idiot question though...I already have the SP-SPSB-1 battery, with no level control and no bass roll-off (I didn't know any better at the time) (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-1). Idiot question though...would I use the pre-amp along with, or instead of the battery box? And if it's "along with," (A) does anyone make a combined preamp and batt box and (B) would I still need to consider the bass roll-off on the battery box as well, if I got a pre-amp that had the bass roll-off?

[Microbe]

You Know,

I missed the part about you plugging into a battery box, sorry about that.  Most pre-amps will combine plug-in power and the preamp.  Like Chris Church's ST-9000.  But having said that, if the distortion is coming from SPL's due to the bass, a preamp and plugging into line-in will not help.  If it is the mic's and not the minidisc preamp, your only option would be to get new mics, even a bass rolloff will not help. If it is the minidisc preamp a rolloff will probably help. Hopefully someone running a similar minidisc will be able to shed somelight on your units preamp.   Or you may want to do a search of threads for minidiscs and see what others are running and what problems they may have had and solved.

You might want to post a small sample and let some people analyze the wav to see what's going on.

[Littlebit]

I'm (hopefully, hehehe) uploading a sample of what I taped last weekend. It's completely raw data, direct from my minidisc to Audacity and converted as a wav (my Intel Mac is relatively new to me and I still have to D/L something so I can export them as mp3's).

Littlebit1.wav is the medium distortion I get on any of their songs with the octavized bass
Littlebit2.wav is the loud, octavized "makes my chest vibrate" bass that causes the worst problems
Littlebit3.wav is the other end of the spectrum I have to deal with in the same concert: NO microphones

Does that help?

[Church-Audio]

Hi Everyone...first post, after reading dozens and dozens of archived messages here over the past 2 days.

Background information: I've been a taper of varying degrees since the mid-1980's...back then, I devised a false bottom for my pocketbook to sneak my cassette tape recorder into venues and could flip and switch tapes in the dark and still lose less than 5 seconds of audio material in the process (grin).

Nowadays I'm a little more advanced...I have a Sharp MD-DR480H (http://minidisc.org/part_Sharp_MD-DR470+DR480+DR7.html), SP-TFB-2 microphones (standard sensitivity) (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2) and SP-SPSB-1 battery (no level control, no bass roll-off) which I plug into the mic in/plug in power on the MDR (I tried the optical/line in input by mistake once and totally messed up the recording).

The group I like to currently tape is an a cappella quintet who use their voices for the vocals as well as for the instruments. They use a sound board & technician to enhance their performance and their sound has been compared to a cross between Rockapella and Manhattan Transfer. One of the performers is their vocal "bass man" and he often, but not always, uses an octavizer to make him even more "bassy". After experiencing some HORRIBLY distortion (from bass and/or volume) when I first got the taping setup, I'm now the most successful if I tape their shows (usually 300-500 seat auditoriums and I'm usually sitting anywhere from 10 to 25 feet from the stage, dead center) on a recording level of "1" (my range is from 0 to 30) and then later use Audacity to make everything louder. This helps to avoid about 75% of the distortion but, being a perfectionist, I'd like to get rid of that other 25%, which I've observed is still mainly from when they're using the octavizer and/or making the sound louder (I don't know how loud they actually get...my ears never ring when the show is done, but when the bass with the octavizer is loud, your can feel the vibrations in your chest).

I've admittedly never played with any of the controls on the MDR, except to change the recording speed to LP because their shows tend to be longer than 74 or 80 minutes or however long a minidisc can record on SP speed (my hearing isn't good enough to notice a difference between SP and LP). From reading all the posts though, I'm thinking that a big part of my problem is lack of bass roll-off...am I correct? So if I were to get a new SP-SPSB-1 WITH the bass roll-off, would that help solve my problem? And if that were the case, what would I set the bass roll-off to and would I still plug the battery into the mic in input?

Or if I'm incorrect on how I think I can fix my problem, do you have any suggestions? (not including new microphones, if at all possible...the SP-TFB-2's work REALLY well for me from a stealth point of view).

Thanks in advance for any help!

The problem is your mics, a preamp will not help your distortion problems. The SP mics that you have are rated at 105 db, that is not enough for concert recording. Peeks can go way over 105 in the low end of the spectrum. I would invest in a better set of mics then try a battery box for loud shows or a preamp. If you need more gain. And for quiet stuff and a nice preamp    I think you will be fine. The battery box will be good for some things and not so good for others. Sometimes you need some gain to get your levels up to a place where your signal to noise ratio will not suffer. The mics you have are great mics SP does a great job of building mics but in all fairness to them these mics (standard sensitivity) were designed for basic recording of sounds that do not go above 105 db Most concerts will go up past 105 and this is why you have distortion. The other main reason is using the mic input on your MD, for most md's thats a not a good idea. So you can try a battery box or a preamp first and plug it into your line input, but there is still a chance your mics will distort. I would go with a preamp for maximum flexibility. But if budget is a concern a battery box will also work in a pinch.
Remember its not the fault of the SP mics they were designed for a set maximum level of 105 as stated on the SP website you have to always make sure when you buy mics from anyone that you understand where and how you intend to use the mics so that you can purchase the correct ones for your application.
Chris Church

[Littlebit]

> Remember its not the fault of the SP mics they were designed for a set maximum level of 105 as
> stated on the SP website you have to always make sure when you buy mics from anyone that you
> understand where and how you intend to use the mics so that you can purchase the correct ones
> for your application.

I wholeheartedly agree. However just because I've been taping for a long time doesn't necessarily mean that I've known what I've been doing (until I got my minidisc recorder 3 years ago, I was still using that tape recorder hidden in my purse, grin). My main concern was stealth and recording in stereo and, not knowing much about sound and how it works and about which microphones have what abilities, I got what I thought would work...and they really are "good enough" for my purposes, most of the time (wink).  I guess I was lucky.

Anyway, if new, better mics are what I need, I'll start considering those and will start doing more research here and a few other boards so I can get something closer to what I truly need.

Thanks!