Topic: Taping bluegrass jams and need some opinions

[larrysellers]

I have been doing some local bluegrass jams lately and I wanted some opinions of what everyone thought. This was done in a modified DIN configuration and the stand was set in the center of the jam circle. I want to it all: good, bad, ugly, suggestions on placement, and of course your opinion of the sample. Rig was Nak CM1000 -> MP2 -> R1. Thanks guys

http://www.sendspace.com/file/hlnh0b

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

+t for recording bluegrass.  It sounds great.  The vocals might be a little low but other than that I think it's nice.  So are the NAKs what you run?  I've had great success running 2 figure 8's in the middle of the circle or blum.  There's really not much more you can do when running a SD stereo pair.  Keep up the good work!

[Gutbucket]

I love this scenario.  I'll give yours a listen once I get home.  I've had great luck using omnis to pick up everyone around the full circle evenly when the focal point moves because some players are stronger, people take turn soloing, different singers lead, etc. In the center of a jam circle that can really work to your advantage and I love the omni sound anyway, especially for outdoor jams.  The sweet airy ambience makes it feel like you are there on playback and acoustic strings just sing.  The Healy technique or a DIY Jecklin disc can both pick up the full 360 circle of players evenly, transposing those in the back half of the circle to the front on playback.

I've always wanted to try Blumlien for in the center but haven't done it yet.  What happens with players located in the out of phase side sectors on playback?

[boojum]

I have tried omnis in a pattern suggested in Michael Williams' "Stereophonic Zoom" and also cards in ORTF.  The omnis are good, but pick up a lot of crowd noise.  I record in a saloon.  The cards in ORTF work nicley with the crowd behind them.  I get close and above with the omnis and close and if front with the cards.

[kskreider]

I only have skm140's and use them to tape bluegrass and old-time almost exclusively.  I am listening to your sample and it sounds good.  I agree with Mark in that the vocals have that slight distant sound when compared to the instrumentation.

Without knowing the configuration of the players and what your choice of capsules are it is hard to advise.  I have noticed that with the cardiods it gets tough if they are in a full circle.  Typically, if the band is playing around a single mic I run my ak40 caps X/Y right at their mic.  (sometimes a foot back and a foot down, tilted up)  If they are using monitors or do not want me on stage then I move back to the stage lip and run ORTF.  If you are close in proximity to the performers try doing something as simple as tilting your mics up about 5 or 10 degrees.  You will be surprised that you still catch a great amount of instruments, but the clarity of the vocals improves dramatically. 

[NOLAfishwater]

I second the figure 8 in the ceter of the circle.

[Gutbucket]

Mics in the center picking up everyone in a circle around them is unlike most taping scenarios where the source is towards the front.  Keep in mind that both Blumlien and omnis will pick up the same amount of crowd noise (if there is any) outside the circle of musicians, but hopefully since the musicians are closest to the mics they will be favored.

Imagine the circle of players as the numbers on a clock with the mics in the center.

I'll start with the stereo omni scenario since that's easier to picture-
With Healy or J-disc each mic is directed towards half of the circle, Right mic points right, Left mic left.  Right gets mostly 12 to 6 o'clock, Left 6 to 12 o'clock.  The playback stereo image is the overlap of those two 180° patterns so the illusion will be that the player at 3 o'clock appears hard right at one speaker and the picker at 9 o'clock hard left at the other.  In the center of the soundstage you'll hear the players situated at 12 o'clock and at 6 o'clock.  Likewise, sounds originating from the 1 o'clock position and the 5 o'clock position will be reproduced just left of center and sounds from 2 and 4 o'clock will appear to come from just inside the right speaker. The same thing happens on the left side- 7 & 11 o'clock will playback just left of center, 10 & 8 o'clock just inside the left speaker. In essence the back half of the circle is folded over onto the front half.  You've cut the pie in half and doubled it up.

The Blumlein scenario a bit more complex-
In that case you'll also have each mic dedicated to 180° of the full 360°, but because you're now using fig-8 pattern mics, that 180° is split between two opposing quarters of the circle.  The Right mic is pointed at 1:30 and primarily picks up the sounds that originate between 12 to 3 o'clock (the front lobe of the fig-8) and 6 to 9 o'clock (it's back lobe), the Left mic points towards 10:30 and picks up it's lions share of sound from 9 to 12 o'clock and 3 to 6 o'clock.  On playback the stereo illusion will be the same as above for the guy yodeling at 12 o'clock and the dobro player at 6 o'clock - they are both reproduced in the center between the speakers.  All other positions are a bit different though.  Now the mandolin guy standing between 1 and 2 o'clock is reproduced hard right at the right speaker and so is the bass player that was standing on the opposite side of the circle between 7 and 8 o'clock.  The front facing quarter of the circle fills the stereo field between the two speakers this time, whereas with the omnis the whole front half of the circle did. In a similar way, the back quarter of the circle between 4:30 and 7:30 (instead of the entire back half) is folded over onto the front half like in the previous example, but is also flipped left to right.

It starts getting strange for the guys on the sides.  Any sounds originating between 1:30 and 4:30 and between 7:30 and 10:30 will be picked up by both mics, but the signal picked up by the 'back lobe' will be inverted in it's polarity.  The stereo image facing sideways will be 'out of phase'. On playback sounds from those directions won't image sharply between the speakers but instead may sound like they are coming from somewhere outside the speakers or may just sound more atmospheric and hard to pin down. That's not necessarily bad, it could sound great.  You might be able to use that effect to artistic advantage depending on how you orient the mics and what sounds you place there.  Thats why I asked those here who have tried this what happens to players located at the sides.

Interesting note: If you play your Blumlein recording back using some kind of Dolby matrix surround decoding (not Dolby digital) like is found on most home theater systems, those 'out of phase' sounds that originated from the sides will be panned towards the surround speakers.

You've cut the pie in 4 pieces and stacked them up (and in doing so you've flipped 2 of them over and turned 2 of them inside out).

OK, I admit the pie analogy is a stretch.
Cherry rhubarb for me please..

[Note edited quite a bit for clarification and for a few grammar rocks]

[Gutbucket]

I hope my explanation isn't too confusing.

Forget the pie analogy other than the number of slices, go with the clock.

[intpseeker]

I ran omnis healy with a bluegrass jam a few months ago, and the players said they could see a large round ball of energy surrounding the two mics, and they played to it. (Hmm, now that I think about it, it wasn't only the music and beer that was good that night...). 

It came out really nicely with the folks sounding as though they were where they actually were.

[kskreider]

the players said they could see a large round ball of energy surrounding the two mics, and they played to it.

Be the ball Danny

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Dude that's an awesome explanation right there.  +t for what I didn't type.  lol  I'll post up some figure 8 and blum stuff soon.  I've/We've made some great recordings at NWSS and Pickathon.     Most definitely don't wanna run either if there's chatty cathy's there.  But yours sounded great with minimal audience.


blum



figure 8

Mics in the center picking up everyone in a circle around them is unlike most taping scenarios where the source is towards the front.  Keep in mind that both Blumlien and omnis will pick up the same amount of crowd noise (if there is any) outside the circle of musicians, but hopefully since the musicians are closest to the mics they will be favored.

Imagine the circle of players as the numbers on a clock with the mics in the center.

I'll start with the stereo omni scenario since that's easier to picture-
With Healy or J-disc each mic is directed towards half of the circle, Right mic points right, Left mic left.  Right gets mostly 12 to 6 o'clock, Left 6 to 12 o'clock.  The playback stereo image is the overlap of those two 180° patterns so the illusion will be that the player at 3 o'clock appears hard right at one speaker and the picker at 9 o'clock hard left at the other.  In the center of the soundstage you'll hear the players situated at 12 o'clock and at 6 o'clock.  Likewise, sounds originating from the 1 o'clock position and the 5 o'clock position will be reproduced just left of center and sounds from 2 and 4 o'clock will appear to come from just inside the right speaker.  In essence the back half of the circle is folded over onto the front half.  You've cut the pie in half and doubled it up.

The Blumlein scenario a bit more complex-
In that case you'll also have each mic dedicated to 180° of the full 360°, but because your now using fig-8 pattern mics so that 180° is split between two opposing quarters of the circle.  The Right mic is pointed at 1:30 and primarily picks up the sounds that originate bewteen 12 to 3 o'clock and 6 to 9 o'clock, the Left mics points towards 10:30 so picks up it's lions share from 9 to 12 o'clock and 3 to 6 o'clock.  On playback the stereo illusion will be the same as above for the guy yodeling at 12 o'clock and the dobro player at 6 o'clock - they are both reproduced in the center between the speakers.  All other positions are a bit different though.  Now the mandolin guy standing between 1 and 2 o'clock is reproduced hard right at the right speaker and so is the bass player that was standing on the opposite side of the circle between 7 and 8 o'clock.  This time the back quarter of the circle between 4:30 and 7:30 is folded over onto the front half like the previous example, but also flipped left to right.

It starts getting strange for the guys on the sides.  Any sounds originating between 1:30 and 4:30 and between 7:30 and 10:30 will be picked up by the mics with inverted polarity.  On playback sounds from those directions won't image sharply between the speakers but instead may sound like they are coming from somewhere outside the speakers or may just sound more atmospheric and hard to pin down. That's not necessarily bad, it could sound great.  You might be able to use that effect to artistic advantage depending on how you orient the mics and what sounds you place there.  Thats why I asked those here who have tried this what happens to players located at the sides.

Interesting note: If you play your Blumlein recording back using some kind of Dolby matrix surround decoding (not Dolby digital) like is found on most home theater systems, those 'out of phase' sounds that originated from the sides will be panned towards the surround speakers.

You've cut the pie in 4 pieces and stacked them up (and in doing so you've flipped 2 of them over and turned 2 of them inside out).

OK, I admit the pie analogy is a stretch.
Cherry rhubarb for me please..

[Gutbucket]

Thanks! & I'd love to hear some of your samples. 

A couple things come to mind after looking at your photos above.. one, you got me jonesin' for a bluegrass jam! and if there aren't any players to the sides (like in the top photo) you don't need to worry about the 'out of phase' Blumlein side areas.  That may often be the case with just a few musicians where you can keep them in the front and rear quadrants.

I edited my explanation quite a bit to clarify some things so anyone new to the thread read that and not the quoted ones, Thx.

[Gutbucket]

Your sample sounds great Larry.  I do hear a slight hole in the middle of the stereo field and I agree the vocals could be more prominent, but its got me tappin' my foot man.  With either the Blumlein or omni techniques you can put the mics up higher so the balance favors the voices more over the instruments.  Depends a lot on how strong the singers are vs. how loud they play of course.  With the cardioids you can also point them so the singers heads are more favored like DarkStarJedi mentioned.