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Author Topic: On-board ADC comparisons/questions  (Read 3191 times)

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Offline carrington

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On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« on: November 06, 2011, 10:57:42 AM »
Hey all.  I'm in the market for a new deck and I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on the following on-board ADC's.

1.  SD 702/722/744

2.  Oade Marantz PMD661

3.  Tascam HD-P2

4.  Sony PCM-M10

I am running Schoeps mk4/21/2s/41->kc5->cmc6->V2/m248->?????? (I previously had a 722; now have M10)

I've also been kicking around the idea of adding an outboard ADC, but I hate to add the extra gear/weight.  Any advice would be apreciated on this subject.

Thanks!
C.

Offline OOK

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 11:09:12 PM »
It is all a matter of taste...but here is my take.

I use a R09HR and a SD702.

I had a tascam HDP2....Liked it but was concerned about support... Ended up with the 702.  Actually my true evolution was panasonic cassette> mini Disc> DAT> HDP2> 702 plus HR for stealthing....  To me the 702 is the best, most durrable and reliable pice of gear available.  Will work perfect from the gate.. no mods needed... reliable and built like a tank.  The only screw ups are user induced :P.  I like the built in pre, the adc and ease of use and the lights are pretty.  Powers off of camcorder batts.. 

but you know what they say about opinions...  What you should do is develop a budget and get the best stuff you can for the money.... I must admit I have heard some bitchin littlebox>m10 set ups...  get sound on a low buget... weight won't be an issue...

Peace OOK
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

Offline twatts (pants are so over-rated...)

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 11:39:09 PM »
This guy had favorable things to say about the HD-P2... 

http://www.prosoundnetwork.com/article/tascam-hd-p2-digital-compact-flash-recorder/887#

Old article, and its not a comp against the others on your list...  But it might be useful...

Terry
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Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2011, 04:56:04 PM »
I think thew ADC of the M10 is awesome! I wouldnt use it if I thought it was inferior :) Just stick w the M10 and be happy you have a small rig :)
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2011, 05:03:36 PM »
the DAC of the M10 is awesome as well.  I've been listening to a bunch of 24bit recordings using MDR-7605 headphones directly from the M10.

It competes very well with my home rig...
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Offline page

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2011, 05:10:01 PM »
I think thew ADC of the M10 is awesome! I wouldnt use it if I thought it was inferior :) Just stick w the M10 and be happy you have a small rig :)

A group of us could pick the 722 in a comp against the M10 that johnw did here last year, but that doesn't mean the M10 is bad, just that there is a difference which we could pick up on.

Unless you are interested in some of the features unique to the 7 series, I don't think there is enough of a difference when doing PA taping to warrent the price anymore. Stage-lip/onstage stuff might be another story and even then there is the usbpre2 (again, missing features, but sounds the same and is cheaper).
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2011, 09:09:55 PM »
I think thew ADC of the M10 is awesome! I wouldnt use it if I thought it was inferior :) Just stick w the M10 and be happy you have a small rig :)

A group of us could pick the 722 in a comp against the M10 that johnw did here last year, but that doesn't mean the M10 is bad, just that there is a difference which we could pick up on.

Unless you are interested in some of the features unique to the 7 series, I don't think there is enough of a difference when doing PA taping to warrent the price anymore. Stage-lip/onstage stuff might be another story and even then there is the usbpre2 (again, missing features, but sounds the same and is cheaper).

I really don't see any difference in recording PA, stage lip, or ambient/nature recording for that matter, when it comes to the M10 versus the 722(line-in). The SD boxes certainly have their advantages, but strictly as a line-in device, the M10 compares very well, especially for the price.  The M10 has a whisper quiet line-in and damn close in other specs compared to the SD boxes. I think I remember reading that the Sony actually has a few specs that are rated better than the SD line-in...

The microphone preamp will be far more important, I have found the M10 line-in to perform amazingly well in very quiet situations... 

Sony has the advantage of product scale and product line.   The M10 inherited some of the amazing engineering that went into the D1.  Additionally it also has the advantage of enjoying a more modern Cirrus Logic chip.

Again, the SD boxes have their advantages in features and durability, but from an ADC standpoint, the M10 is hanging tough.   

If I had an endless supply of money, I still wouldn't replace my m10 with a 722.  Having an xlr line-input is the only thing that would make me consider it.
That new Tascam DR-40 appeals to me more as a XLR line-input device.  Certainly not better than the 722, but there will come a time very soon, I think, that these inexpensive recorders will have ADC's that out-perform the 7-series.  Heck, that 7-series ADC chip is going to be old enough to drive before people realize it ain't worth thousands of dollars...

 :)
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Offline rastasean

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2011, 11:40:32 PM »
Well you have owned the 722 and now own the m10. whats your opinion on the m10? What made you sell the 722 and do you regret it?

It has been mentioned before but if you like the 722's sound, but not the price tag, a usbpre2 could be another option but since you're running the v2, you may not like the sound.
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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2011, 12:26:14 AM »
Unless you are interested in some of the features unique to the 7 series, I don't think there is enough of a difference when doing PA taping to warrant the price anymore. Stage-lip/onstage stuff might be another story and even then there is the usbpre2 (again, missing features, but sounds the same and is cheaper).

I really don't see any difference in recording PA, stage lip, or ambient/nature recording for that matter, when it comes to the M10 versus the 722(line-in).

I think with non-PA recording there is a greater importance or opportunity on retention of soundstage cues and micro-detail like plucks or clicks that occur in instruments but can get wiped out or smeared when processed through a lot of gear and then blasted into a reverberant room. The natural decay of a cymbol or drum head sounds different for example. Maybe it's just my experience, but I love the sound of a mandolin, trombone, or drums when I'm taping close by versus much further back in the room. Truely; ymmv.

I once listened to a comp between the Nagra 6 and the 788 and I found the best way to find differences between the two was not to listen to the chorus singing, but to listen to a priest or someone else coughing during a conversation to the left of the congregation. With the Nagra, I could start to make out words, with the 788 I had more trouble.

Heck, that 7-series ADC chip is going to be old enough to drive before people realize it ain't worth thousands of dollars...

if it's preferred, why change it (they didn't in their usbpre2 which came out a year ago).

But on a serious note, I don't think many are buying a 7 series box for the sound quality necessarily anymore as for it's dual media, fail over power, et al. It's the features, cause otherwise if you wanted that sound, you'd pick up the usbpre2 which has the same adc and preamps as the 788 at half the price of a used 722. I've thought about selling mine, but letting go of that feature set isn't something I want to do at the moment.

I don't think the M10's adc stage is a slouch, it's a nice unit, in many ways I think I'd be happy with one (well, a D50, but basically the same thing), especially with the price, but the features of the 7 series have saved my butt more times then I care to count.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2011, 12:54:18 AM »
I havent missed my 722 AT ALL :) 8) ;D
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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2011, 10:43:33 AM »
I was thinking a little more about this.  Perhaps the ADC is "that" good that SD isn't in danger of obsolescence. What sounds great today isn't likely to sound bad tomorrow...

That said, I still think the preamp stage is far more important than the ADC, even for Micro-detail... 
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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2011, 10:57:16 AM »
That said, I still think the preamp stage is far more important than the ADC, even for Micro-detail... \

agreed  :)
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2011, 11:10:16 AM »
I think with non-PA recording there is a greater importance or opportunity on retention of soundstage cues and micro-detail like plucks or clicks that occur in instruments but can get wiped out or smeared when processed through a lot of gear and then blasted into a reverberant room. The natural decay of a cymbol or drum head sounds different for example. Maybe it's just my experience, but I love the sound of a mandolin, trombone, or drums when I'm taping close by versus much further back in the room. Truely; ymmv.

Well said.   And "real" soundstages have 3D depth.  It is amazing what a great two mic recording can recreate on a great playback system - it really has to be heard to be believed.

I went from a 722 to an r09, and definitely missed the 722's a/d.  But I was almost always running pre-amps in front of the 722, because I found the pre in the 722 lacking a bit.

We've had some blind comps here where the r09's a/d was preferred to the v3's a/d.  So, what we like really varies and doesn't always make sense.

I haven't run my m10 nearly enough to get a sense of how it compares to the 722 as an a/d.  Some comps with the v3 a/d should be very telling.

Some folks here have Myteks.  I've always wondered about that a/d but we really haven't had the comps.

It's getting to be "comp" weather!

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Re: On-board ADC comparisons/questions
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2011, 04:16:43 PM »
That said, I still think the preamp stage is far more important than the ADC, even for Micro-detail... \

agreed  :)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
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