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Offline carpa

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classical music samples?
« on: March 03, 2009, 06:25:33 PM »
I've been searching around the web for classical music recordings ( mostly interested in solo piano, but also chamber music) in order to make a decision about mics to use with an Edirol r09hr.
I'll have to tape my own classical piano recitals and I need portability and easy placement, even close to the instrument if needed. So the choice is between a stereo battery-powered mic (like rode nt4) or a couple of miniature mics-plus preamp or bb if needed- which I could place on a light stand 60cm spaced or similar.
In this latter case I'd go for omnis (of course a stereo single-point is only cards), because I prefer the omni (rich and natural)sound for a piano.

I'm not considering other solutions (two "normal" mono condensers) cause I'd need a bigger stand- cables- external 48v preamp or power, with the result that I would rarely bring all this stuff with me.

In the archive I didn't found any unamplified classical music sample. Elsewhere I found something recorded with dpa's 4060 (which I like a lot but cost to much also) but nothing else.
In particular I'm referring to Church Audio(he has a good reputation and the prices are ok), Sennheiser, AT etc., but found nothing (honestly I also found almost nothing recorded by a Rode nt4, only a piano and voice recital on  Rode website in which I didn't like the piano sound at all).

Does any of you have a good link for such samples? Does it mean that this type of mics are not intended for classical music except for DPA's?
thank you
c




Offline BayTaynt3d

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Offline Roger Gustavsson

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 02:07:15 AM »
That one sounds very good!

I have a recording with three violins and an upright piano. It was made with two Nakakmichi CM-300 microphone in ORTF-configuration (caridoid), MX-100 preamp and a Digigram VXpocket soundcard.


Roger

Offline guysonic

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 02:38:46 AM »
Scores of HRTF omni array recordings of solo piano and other acoustic instruments on my samples page at:

www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:03:27 AM by guysonic »
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline carpa

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 04:00:45 AM »
Sample from meter split DFC 6' on stage AKG480 + ck62 Omnis > R44
This is actually very good, though I'm searching for an easy setup sample made only with two miniature mics. I.e. in the Archive there are several shows taped with CA 14 and, let's say, R09hr or Zoom or tascam.... I'm searchin for something like this but with classical (piano) music, though I know there aren't probably a lot on the web.
thank you
c

Offline DSatz

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 08:10:17 AM »
carpa, for going on forty years I've recorded classical music almost exclusively, including quite a lot of solo piano. In the early 1980s I was the engineer for a two-year series of weekly solo piano recital broadcasts a classical radio station here in New York, for example. I was also the digital technician on several CDs with Ivan Moravec and two of the late Paul Jacobs' recordings for Nonesuch (and in part, was the uncredited engineer/producer for his duo-piano recordings with Ursula Oppens, which I believe was his last recording).

I make my living these days doing technical work for a publisher, but I still do a fair amount of recording as a volunteer, to help performers and organizations I believe in and just because I enjoy it. Even though this Web site isn't a classical-oriented place, I enjoy it here because of the intense mixture of rowdiness and caring a lot about music, sound and life itself. Most of the people here are far less cynical than a lot of people who are professionals in the audio business. I need that.

Anyway, we could talk, and I'd be just as glad to do that here in writing and in front of everybody, if that wouldn't be too exhibitionistic. I see you trying to work out a compromise between convenience of setup and sound quality, just like most of the rest of us (I'm past the days when I would lug a 40-pound Studer open-reel tape recorder and two heavy mike stands to every concert, though I did that for a while).

The thing is, when you're recording yourself playing, you can't be trying five different setups and comparing and deciding before you perform; there will be times when you'll listen to the playback and realize that it would have been better if the mikes had been a foot closer or higher, or if the levels had been set 6 dB differently. But it's better to have those regrets than to have a perfect recording that only gives you regrets about how you played that night.

I don't know how particular you are about the type of sound you'll get from different types of setups. There are fundamental differences between (to pick two extremes) a spaced pair of omnidirectional microphones versus a coincident pair of strongly directional microphones such as "figure-8s." These two recording methods give results that not only sound different but feel different--one listens to them rather differently, I'm convinced. There are also some plausible midpoints between the two (e.g. closely spaced, but not coincident, moderately directional microphones).

One thing that you mention which I would probably not recommend is the Røde NT 4 stereo microphone, unless you have tried it and found that it coincides exactly with your tastes. In my view its design (coincident cardioids with only ±45 degrees between them) is suitable only for very close-up recording, or for capturing discussions at a wide angle around a table, for example. Such a narrow angle between capsules of only moderate directionality will give you a nearly mono pickup unless the sound source is unusually wide. For normal classical recording which is picked up not too close to the sound source, a considerably wider angle between capsules (e.g. ±55 - 60 degrees) would be preferable by far.

But (again, unless your ears tell you differently and you are confident about your preferences) cardioids are probably the worst possible general choice of a pattern for use in a coincident stereo recording anyway; they're fine for spot miking in studios or live work, but semi-distant stereo pickup is a whole other thing.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline carpa

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 08:32:29 AM »
Thank you for your kind attention to my needs, Dsatz. I think you'r perfectly right about  the needs of somebody who performs (I own various cd's os Jacobs and Oppens, so compliments 'cause I like the sound very much -also the playing-).

At the end I'm not convinces either about a stereo like Rode. I mean, once you have you use it, but if you have to search for something maybe you look for something else.
As I feel I'm oriented to omnis, that's why I'm tryin to explore the world of mini mics, which could maybe turn to be the good compromise I'm looking for. Most of them can be powered by a bb, so I could use them with a pocket recorder, and if I choose something like a 60 cm distance beetwen them I can afford a single stand.
I need some advice in the choice because, as I said before, I hardly find classical recordings made with this gear. I know I'm not going to have a pro recording anyway, but I wouldn't like to buy the wrong thing.
I've listened to rock samples made with Church ca14; they are cheap, and they could come with their dedicated preamp (which can power the dpa's 4046 in the future), but I absolutely don't understand how those omnis could do with unamplyfied classical.
The dpa's are good, and I liked the Nevatons mce400 (always on rock shows....). Apart from the fact that the latter are only phantom powered, I think that both dpa and Neva cost maybe to much for my entry level.

Any advice in this field, or you think that mini mics are not a good choice at the pourpose?
thank you

c


Offline Dede2002

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 09:48:12 AM »
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 10:48:15 AM »
Sample from meter split DFC 6' on stage AKG480 + ck62 Omnis > R44

I wasn't aware of this baytaper.com site. Great, great, great site. :coolguy:

Thanks, it's just me back there, lol...


DSatz: Just making sure when you say 45, 55, 65 degrees in your post above, you're talking about the off axis angle not the angle b/w the mics, correct? Also, thanks for your continuing and valuable contribution to this site, much appreciated.
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Offline carpa

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 11:33:02 AM »
thank you moke. I listened to the tenor and piano recordingg you kindly linked. Sounds good. I wonder how cheaper gear than the dpa's (im trying to catch information about Church Audio ca omnis) would handle a similar situation.
Your advice regarding small capsules in full body mics is a good clue.
thanks
c


Offline carpa

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 12:19:06 PM »
Very nice recordings, thank you.
It is true that I'd like to get to dpa step by step....in this case wouldn't be a bad thing to buy a pre and omnis from Church Audio, as his preamp can power the dpa's in the future.
A couple of question about 4060.   How close to a piano could they be placed befor risking distortion? In other terms, their spl is enough to be placed, i.e., 70cm to one meter from the instrument?
Second question: they come terminated in a particular shape. Is it still an unbalanced signal? If so, how long a cable (or an extention ) can be without picking unwanted noise?
thanks
c

Offline Dede2002

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 12:38:05 PM »
Sample from meter split DFC 6' on stage AKG480 + ck62 Omnis > R44

I wasn't aware of this baytaper.com site. Great, great, great site. :coolguy:

Thanks, it's just me back there, lol...

 

Hello,

Hope I'm not bothering you. Again, compliments for a job well done. I'd like to ask you a question if you don't mind. Is there a chance for me to have Flac files of the Amendola/Blades duo gig? I'm crazy about Hammond B-3 combos.
Thanks in advance,
Sergio
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 01:07:34 PM »
DPA's distorting from a piano, yeah right, LOL... 

I'm thinking when powered correctly, you'd be hard pressed to distort them at the loudest rock show you've ever been to while standing right in front of the stacks... <SMILE>
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 01:13:55 PM »
Sample from meter split DFC 6' on stage AKG480 + ck62 Omnis > R44

I wasn't aware of this baytaper.com site. Great, great, great site. :coolguy:

Thanks, it's just me back there, lol...

 

Hello,

Hope I'm not bothering you. Again, compliments for a job well done. I'd like to ask you a question if you don't mind. Is there a chance for me to have Flac files of the Amendola/Blades duo gig? I'm crazy about Hammond B-3 combos.
Thanks in advance,
Sergio

Right now that source is archived off-site (not at home), but next time I bring home that drive, I'll pull it off and give you a pm. Give me a week or so...

BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline Dede2002

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Re: classical music samples?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 01:35:40 PM »
Sample from meter split DFC 6' on stage AKG480 + ck62 Omnis > R44

I wasn't aware of this baytaper.com site. Great, great, great site. :coolguy:

Thanks, it's just me back there, lol...

 

Hello,

Hope I'm not bothering you. Again, compliments for a job well done. I'd like to ask you a question if you don't mind. Is there a chance for me to have Flac files of the Amendola/Blades duo gig? I'm crazy about Hammond B-3 combos.
Thanks in advance,
Sergio

Right now that source is archived off-site (not at home), but next time I bring home that drive, I'll pull it off and give you a pm. Give me a week or so...



Appreciate it.  ;)
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

 

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