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Poll

If your sony pcm-m10 requires clock to be reset each time you power on, what have you done?

Issue went away and clock now functions
6 (24%)
Contacted sony received reply
1 (4%)
contacted sony, no reply
0 (0%)
returned unit and received unit without issue
0 (0%)
other (please specificy)
18 (72%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)  (Read 129341 times)

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Offline Artstar

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #195 on: December 14, 2010, 08:02:31 AM »
Sorry, I should've been a little more elaborate and specified fixed omni mics but yes, that's the point I was making.

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #196 on: December 14, 2010, 09:42:27 AM »
with low frequencies clumping in the centre of the image, and high frequencies moving to the edges.

Perfect for band rehearsals.
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline Kevin T

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #197 on: December 14, 2010, 03:57:39 PM »
Why is that?

Offline johnferrier

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #198 on: December 14, 2010, 08:26:15 PM »
the skin effect due to eddy currents . . .

Offline kleiner Rainer

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #199 on: December 15, 2010, 12:44:16 PM »
the skin effect due to eddy currents . . .


 ;D

(Wiping coffee off my PC screen)

You made my day.

Greetings,

Rainer


BTW it seems the angled omnis are perfect for recording interviews or meetings. We should always remember that the world of digital recorders does not revolve around us tapers...
recording steam trains since 1985

Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #200 on: December 16, 2010, 02:42:58 AM »
We should always remember that the world of digital recorders does not revolve around us tapers...
What the heck are you talking about? it totally revolves around tapers.....
:lol:
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

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Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  • MBHO KA500 or KA300 •
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Recorders: MixPre 10T •  Tascam DR-100 mkIII • Sony A-10 • Sony M-10 

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Offline pool

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #201 on: December 16, 2010, 07:52:33 AM »
To improve stereo separation and eliminate handling noise, is it possible that the internal mics of the PCM-M10 are extended on cables? Has anyone opened the PCM-M10 and can recommend if its possible. Would the actual cables increase noise?

P.S. no, I wont fare easier with having a pre-amp and external mics.  I tape quite music in stealth and extra gear is not possible and i got more hiss when i did even with mics intended for clasical music. In addition the quite results of the PCM-M10 are fine with me. So please kindly refrain form this option- my question is different.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 07:56:16 AM by pool »

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #202 on: December 16, 2010, 08:18:25 AM »
Why is that?

You only need to point it at the kit to get a semi-mono, bass-in-the-middle snapshot of your band. In my experience, mono is the best way to check instrument balance, tempo, and generally whether the song cooks or not.
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline kleiner Rainer

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #203 on: December 16, 2010, 03:21:30 PM »
To improve stereo separation and eliminate handling noise, is it possible that the internal mics of the PCM-M10 are extended on cables? Has anyone opened the PCM-M10 and can recommend if its possible. Would the actual cables increase noise?

P.S. no, I wont fare easier with having a pre-amp and external mics.  I tape quite music in stealth and extra gear is not possible and i got more hiss when i did even with mics intended for clasical music. In addition the quite results of the PCM-M10 are fine with me. So please kindly refrain form this option- my question is different.

I tried something different: I took a piece of foam plastic for packing purposes (15cm diameter, 1cm thick) and cut a notch into it. Now it slides over the front of the M10 between the microphones and acts as a kind of "Jecklin disc". The stereo separation is much better now. For "Jecklin disc", look here:

http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jecklin_Disk

Try it! I did not test how far i could reduce the size of the disc, but even at 10cm diameter, it should give an easily discernable improvement.

Greetings,

Rainer


recording steam trains since 1985

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #204 on: December 16, 2010, 05:18:33 PM »
The post-production fix for M10 stereo problems is mentioned at http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1769790#msg1769790

Offline pool

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #205 on: December 16, 2010, 05:26:02 PM »
I cannot use a disc for stealth.
My main concern is not stereo seperation only but handling noise.
My questions remains the same as above.

Offline monkeyguy

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #206 on: December 16, 2010, 10:14:33 PM »
anyone know the best site to order this international, had a look at a couple and cheapest i could find to new zealand was $50 for postage

Offline tgos3

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #207 on: December 17, 2010, 01:53:01 PM »
 :D  I promised an update on Sony's handling of the 'clock issue', so here it is--
For those who don't want to scroll endlessly for the story: my unit developed the clock issue after a few months.  I waited until six months post purchase to call it in, after reading the thread here.  I called around at Sony, and finally reached Sony Pro Audio support (scroll back for address and phone number).  They initially told me they would charge me $90 under the 'parts exchange warranty', which I found ....ummm....unattractive.   I explained the fact that numerous others had reported the problem, and sent them thread exerpts as evidence.

Steve Gill, the Pro Audio Service Mgr. in LA has stepped up and handled this for us in a way I think is pretty impressive.  Given his position and duties, I am sure he has more pressing problems than teething issues on a $200 prosumer unit.  However he went to the Sustaining Engineer, and the Product manager, and produced a solution, and they exchanged my unit.

I sent it back at my expense, and they shipped the replacement back at their expense. They sent a new set of batteries with it.

I now have in my hands a replacement unit.  I don't know if it is new or refurb (sent bare in bubble wrap, without the imprinted screen cover) or new.  If it is refurb, it is very clean, and I don't think it is likely to have suffered any mechanical damage.  They even called me before shipping to see if it was ok to send a black unit instead of a red unit. Fine with me -- I'll take what I can get.

I set it up, put the flash card back in, and am using it.  We shall see if the clock issue reoccurs. Since shipping and insurance to Sony was about $17 bucks I will probably just learn to live with it if it occurs again.

Relevant to the rest of you, here is Steve's explanation of current policy:

"Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this.  There was an internal glitch that has now been resolved.  The original support philosophy for this model was supposed to be product exchange within the warranty period.  This conflicted with the one year parts/90-day labor warranty that was assigned to the product.  The product manager has now recognized the conflict and has changed the warranty to 1 year/1 year so we can proceed with an exchange.  Before we do that, however, let me get one in my hands and I will notify you to send yours in for the exchange.  If you know others who are having the same problem, they should be sending them in for exchange as well.  If you still have the form I sent you, we will need that sent in with your unit and a hard copy of your proof of purchase.

Thank you for your patience,

Steve"

So the moral of the story seems to be, if you have a problem, Steve/Sony is interested in doing the right thing.  Contact <LAservice@am.sony.com>, be courteous, objective, request the service request form (they will email you) and be patient in corresponding about the issue.  They still have no idea what the problem is, since this "is a new unit" and mine is apparently the first actually sent to them with the problem.  I asked the last person (not a tech) I spoke to if they would interrogate the EPROM to look for the problem, and he didn't know.  If it's cheaper just to exchange the units, I don't know if they will look for the electronic problem unless and untill they get a bunch of them back.

I hope this helps some other folks.  I told SONY there were a bunch of us looking for a solution. I hope some other in-warranty users will also obtain service.  If there are enough units with the problem, maybe even post warranty users ('who didn't bother sending my unit in because I figured the parts exchange cost would be too great) might receive some consideration/adjustment.

My thanks to the other posters with this problem, who provided the additional evidence that may have helped Sony arrive at their current helpful policy decision.

TG


Offline su6oxone

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #208 on: December 17, 2010, 03:26:14 PM »
Excellent news, glad you got everything taken care of and thanks for keeping us posted.  Only thing, though, is that Sony isn't fixing the issue really and is just giving you a new unit that will probably have its clock malfunction at some point until it exceeds the 1year/1year modified warranty peroid and then you'll probably be stuck with it.  I would have preferred if they had just fixed the issue and returned that one so you wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.  Probably it's not worth the cost of repairing and it's cheaper to just send out some refurbs to appease the customer.

Offline tgos3

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 4)
« Reply #209 on: December 17, 2010, 04:49:15 PM »
If they repaired it, it would have taken a lot longer.  First they would have had to get it to screw up....how long would that take?  I'd rather have a unit, although like you I am curious about the cause.
You may be right, they may only exchange them.....Presumably eventually they put a new clock and/or motherboard in them, and turn them around as refurbs.

In truly 'professional' gear and contexts, (medical equipment, industrial equipment, famous audio studios, etc.)  it's quite common for a 'top class' mfg to send a user a replacement unit, to avoid lost time which can have serious consequences.

To some degree it's up to us.  If they get back a dozen or more units from us, they may decide it's too big a problem to leave in the firmware, or wherever the prob is, and they may actually take some of them apart and interrogate them or try to duplicate the problem.

They had to find a unit to replace mine -- it took several days for the LA Pro Audio office to find a unit for me.  I don't believe they even have another replacement in hand right now, which is why they sent me a black one to replace my red one.  That leads me to suspect that if they get a bunch of replacement requests it will cause them enough inconvenience to make it more worth their time to identifiy the cause of the problem, figure out a fix, or at least a way to prevent the issue in future production runs of the unit.

It also means it will require patience and tact on the part of users to get max cooperation from the service department.  A word to the wise....

I hope other affected users will make use of the upgraded service policy -- that's the only reason I posted the story.  The LA service mgr went out of his way to fix this, and a solution is possible under warranty at very nominal cost (shipping one way).  They could haved told me to read the fine print and piss off, but they didn't.  They stepped up and did the right thing.  It's up to the user community to respond.

If my new one messes up, I will send them an email and say 'what do you think is appropriate'.  At that point they would have a hard time classifying it as a random failure.....

I want to see what they do with our colleague with the three bad units.....that should make them take notice.


TG


 

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