Topic: Mid/Side recording on Edirol R44

[WiFiJeff]

I will be doing mid/side recording on an Edirol R44 this Friday, with the M/S going into the digital inputs (channels 1 and 2).  How do you select from the Effects menu so that you can monitor stereo L/R on headphones while recording M/S?  I usually do this on an SD722, where it is easy to set up the monitoring.  (I am using the R44 because I need a third channel for the omni capsule of my **NEW JOSEPHSON C700S**, took me four years to finally pull the trigger on that).

If I select "playback" will I be able to hear L/R as I record or only on later playback?  If I select "record" will it create M/S channels on 1/2 or a L/R stereo pair (don't want that!).  Sorry to be so clueless, won't have access to my gear until just before the session.

Jeff

[mepaca]

Sorry - you can't do it. It is one of the dumb features on an otherwise good recorder. What you can do is record channels 1+2 digi in and then send an analog version from your preamp or analog outputs 1+2 of the recorder to channels 3+4 and have them decoded while recording to l+r for monitering.

[DigiGal]

If you are recording the discrete outputs directly and creating the stereo mix in post one field tip is to monitor only the 'Mid" channel, since the 'Mid" position is your on-axis sound. 

You can easily rig up a custom headphone adapter cable to put the "Mid' in both ears if the R-44 doesn't allow you to switch the headphone output like SD does.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Admittedly, headphone monitoring is probably the weakest point on an otherwise great deck.  It's automatically set up to assign tracks 1&3 to the left channel and 2&4 to the right.  The headphone volume knob has a "click" (push the knob in) feature that changes what you're monitoring but there's no way to alter it.  The good thing is that it shows on the display what you're listening to.  To the best of my memory:

Click 1 = channels 1&2 as a stereo pair
Click 2 = channels 3&4 as a stereo pair
Click 3 = channel 1 alone
Click 4 = channel 2 alone
Click 5 = channel 3 alone
Click 6 = channel 4 alone
Click 7 = all channels in mono
Click 8 = back to all channels as stereo pairs

What DigiGal is suggesting is a good idea and I think (IIRC) that when you monitor a single channel the deck sends it mono to both ears.

[Gutbucket]

First off, congratulations on the C700S, that's a dream mic!

Mr. Chicken Boy has it.  Monitoring each mic channel individually is the extent of what you can do on the machine while recording, excluding using some sort of external unit to do the matrixing on the headphone or line outputs.  I've only used the M/S decode matrix for playback from the machine.  The 'record' M/S option would allow you to monitor while recording in decoded stereo (I think) but also records that decoded stereo feed, which is probably not what you want.  It's not what I want, so I've never used that.

[WiFiJeff]

Thanks for all the replies.  I went into this today monitoring the "mid" channel (Josephson "X") on the R44 as suggested, but basically felt I was flying blind.  I just did mid and side ("X" and "Y") at the same preamp settings (47 dB on my V3) and adjusted the "W" (omni) channel on the R44 analog-in track 3 until it was about the same level as the mid.  What I noticed right away was that when set this way the omni cap was showing far more noise than either figure-eight when there was no signal, which I think shows that even an Oade-modded R44 ain't no V3.  I may try to use an MP-1 with the "W" channel in a few weeks.

I was taping a cello and piano recital, and have only tried listening to a straight Blumlein decoding (X+Y/X-Y as L/R) and one with "W" mixed into both (like a M/S with cardioid mid).  The Blumlein is cleanest, but maybe too much separation, the other more mellow.  If I can't even pick out which of these is better, how 'm I gonna deal with the other zillion possibilities?

Too many choices!

Jeff

[Gutbucket]

Is the sensitivity the same on the omni as the 8's? If so, I'd suggest running the exact same gain on all three channels, which will make the matrix decoding simpler and easier to understand. 

On the zillion possibilites, I'd suggest trying some ambisonic software.  What you have with that mic when matrixing all three capsules is horizontal only ambisonics. Your mic feeds, assuming all the caps have equal sensitivity and you orient the mic M/S, are straight Ambisonic B-format without the Z component for height (W,X,Y).  There are many different apps and a good deal of them free, developed by university research types.  Many allow you to simply plug the three files in and then manipulate mic patterns and angles on the screen while you listen.  So you can dial in Blumlein, play with the angle, or widen the pattern to hyper or try 130 degree cards or whatever, all while listening.  Makes it much easier to mess with and far less intimidating than doing the raw matrixing on a mixer or in your daw. Plus I've found no better learning tool for 'closing the mental loop' between the reality of what you are hearing out of the speakers and the abstraction of mic patterns, angles, configs.

Making sure the gains are exactly equal for each channel (assuming the sensitivitys are equal between capsules) is critical to having that work right though.  When I was using my Oade CM R-44 for the Tetramic, I'd balance the input gains exaclty with a signal generator and a multimeter before recording.
Hit me up for details if interested.

[WiFiJeff]

pm sent.  I'd love a lead on the software.

Jeff

[RichT]

In these situations I'll either monitor from my mixer (which has an MS decoder) or as a mono sum on the recorder.

For ambisonics software see http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/ (including for the Zoom H2, mostly OSX only)
and http://uod-true-multi-channel-mixing.wikispaces.com/How+to+use+the+Wigware+Ambisonic+Decoder