Topic: Microphone recommendation for recording rock concerts ??

[H₂O]

If you up your budget to the $2000-2400 range you could pick up a pair of DPA 4021/4022/4023 which would be a nice set of mics.

Also you could look at Milab VM-44 links in your current price range

[twalker]

If you up your budget to the $2000-2400 range you could pick up a pair of DPA 4021/4022/4023 which would be a nice set of mics.

Also you could look at Milab VM-44 links in your current price range

Exactly.  You mentioned Milabs in another post.  If you know the sound and like the sound, then why not jump on another set.  I found a dealer yesterday that had links for $868/each.  It is my understanding the tolerances are very close, so you can get away with not purchasing a matched pair.  It is another $600 fee.  Personally, I love DPAs.  I am playing with the new modular series right now.

[aaronji]

and, of course, those DPAs can handle high SPLs if you can handle the budget!

I would not recommend the 4060's for rock n roll if you're near a loud PA or a loud sub specifically. They will distort. (I found out the hard way.) If you record from further back, it won't be an issue, but being omnidirectional, it may not sound that great.

Wouldn't the distortion be more a function of the pre amplifier, rather than the microphone sensitivity? I do not use DPAs so do not know the differences between models very well, but for almost any microphone, distortion on the recording can be the outcome of a few things (pre amp, HP/LP filters, recorder quality, mic sensitivity, etc).

The 4060s are pretty hot (20 mV/Pa) and can definitely overload the inputs on a lot of recorders in a high SPL situation...

[rocksuitcase]

and, of course, those DPAs can handle high SPLs if you can handle the budget!

I would not recommend the 4060's for rock n roll if you're near a loud PA or a loud sub specifically. They will distort. (I found out the hard way.) If you record from further back, it won't be an issue, but being omnidirectional, it may not sound that great.

Wouldn't the distortion be more a function of the pre amplifier, rather than the microphone sensitivity? I do not use DPAs so do not know the differences between models very well, but for almost any microphone, distortion on the recording can be the outcome of a few things (pre amp, HP/LP filters, recorder quality, mic sensitivity, etc).

The 4060s are pretty hot (20 mV/Pa) and can definitely overload the inputs on a lot of recorders in a high SPL situation...

Thanks for the info! What I take from this is that the 4060s output impedance using a "typical" recorders stock pre amps will cause distortion. This is what high quality/custom pre amps are made for. Translation for the OP: if you do not plan on using a high quality pre amp, do not buy DPA 4060s.

[Todd R]

I think H2O is a bargain hunter. 

Typical price on Milab vm44-links is $2200 for an unmatched pair.  Twalker's find of a pair for ~$1750 is a very good deal.  If your budget can stretch to that, I'd definitely consider them.  Milabs are excellent mics.

Also, it seems like DPAs are going for more than $2400 a pair used.  I think there are 2 pairs in the yardsale for $2800.  So even used, that might really be stretching the budget.

For a small stretch above your top end:  The new DPA 2011C mics are only $1600 a pair new.  These are undoubtedly very nice mics.

The overall trouble is:  $1500 a pair for mics, including the option of used, opens up a whole slew of good options for excellent mics.  The feedback you'll get will be a reflection of the individual tastes of those responding.  At that price, you'll have enough options that you really should do your own listening and make your own judgements. 

And then also decide what you want from mics: small total stealth mics; typical condensers you'd only use for open taping, large diaphragm vs small diaphragm condensers (which are different both in the size you'll be lugging around + the size of the stand to support the mics, and SD's and LD's have different typical sounds and different physics of reproducing sound), typical full-bodied mics vs active/remote capsule and cable varieties that are more low profile, smaller to carry around, quicker to set up; mics with only one capsule type vs multiple patterns of a LD mic or multiple capsules to use with a SD mic; if only one capsule type, do you want cardioid, hypercardioid, omni, or even perhaps fig8 or MS set-up mics; etc, etc.

At this point, given really only your budget, there are dozens and dozens of options to consider.

[acidjack]

I think H2O is a bargain hunter. 

Typical price on Milab vm44-links is $2200 for an unmatched pair.  Twalker's find of a pair for ~$1750 is a very good deal.  If your budget can stretch to that, I'd definitely consider them.  Milabs are excellent mics.

Also, it seems like DPAs are going for more than $2400 a pair used.  I think there are 2 pairs in the yardsale for $2800.  So even used, that might really be stretching the budget.

For a small stretch above your top end:  The new DPA 2011C mics are only $1600 a pair new.  These are undoubtedly very nice mics.

The overall trouble is:  $1500 a pair for mics, including the option of used, opens up a whole slew of good options for excellent mics.  The feedback you'll get will be a reflection of the individual tastes of those responding.  At that price, you'll have enough options that you really should do your own listening and make your own judgements. 

And then also decide what you want from mics: small total stealth mics; typical condensers you'd only use for open taping, large diaphragm vs small diaphragm condensers (which are different both in the size you'll be lugging around + the size of the stand to support the mics, and SD's and LD's have different typical sounds and different physics of reproducing sound), typical full-bodied mics vs active/remote capsule and cable varieties that are more low profile, smaller to carry around, quicker to set up; mics with only one capsule type vs multiple patterns of a LD mic or multiple capsules to use with a SD mic; if only one capsule type, do you want cardioid, hypercardioid, omni, or even perhaps fig8 or MS set-up mics; etc, etc.

At this point, given really only your budget, there are dozens and dozens of options to consider.

Depends on the DPAs.  The 4028s and 4022s in the YS are in the $2800 range, but 4021s have gone for $1800 and $2000 (mine) recently as well.  I know of at least one seller who has a back-from-the-factory set of 4021s he wants to unload...

[page]

Typical price on Milab vm44-links is $2200 for an unmatched pair.  Twalker's find of a pair for ~$1750 is a very good deal.  If your budget can stretch to that, I'd definitely consider them.  Milabs are excellent mics.

I admit, I did sort of fall out of my chair on this one. I even looked this morning. I suspect if you call around to your favorite dealer who you're on good terms with, you can probably get them that cheap, but I haven't seen them advertised that cheap. That said, you should always make nice with your dealer(s) of choice and call them if you are going to buy something mcspendy brand new.

Also, it seems like DPAs are going for more than $2400 a pair used.  I think there are 2 pairs in the yardsale for $2800.  So even used, that might really be stretching the budget.

You'll also notice they haven't moved at those prices... The last set that sold I think was acidjacks at around $2000 and that included some other stuff.

Part of the problem is that DPA put a dent in the (already hurting) used market by doing two things:

1) Switching to a true changable capsule system.
2) Dropping their new price by about $100-200 on a cap/body combo.

For a small stretch above your top end:  The new DPA 2011C mics are only $1600 a pair new.  These are undoubtedly very nice mics.

For what we do, I totally agree with this. In some ways, they are almost optimal; slightly brighter, slightly tighter pattern, cheap(er), etc.

The rest of your post was solid as well (no need to take up space and quote it).

[Todd R]

Wow, I had no idea used DPAs were going for that cheap.  I thought the going rate was more like $2400, and just assumed that was going up based on YS prices.

Kind of makes me want to get a pair, but I guess I'll stick with Milabs.

[twalker]

Wow, I had no idea used DPAs were going for that cheap.  I thought the going rate was more like $2400, and just assumed that was going up based on YS prices.

Kind of makes me want to get a pair, but I guess I'll stick with Milabs.

Still, I love DPAs.  But, I heard a couple of recording lately with Milabs and thought they sounded terrific.  And, yes, I have been jonsing for a new pair of low profile mics.  First, I thought a CMR set was going to be the ticket.  But, then I saw the used 4023s.  And, then I read some reviews on the 2011s.  I am really leaning in that direction personally, especially if DPA starts with remote capsule options.  But, then yesterday I found the links at a price I thought was to good to be true after and now I am considering those. 

The DPA with the MMA pre makes a nice sounding recording.  But, in all fairness, I have only heard them in a jazz setting. 

As you can see decisions in this game will drive you crazy.  Good luck!

[ilduclo]

134 dB for 4060s
144 dB for 4061s

it's powering them with a decent 9v bb that makes the diff....

I believe that mr Rocksuitcase is in error...

[acidjack]

134 dB for 4060s
144 dB for 4061s

it's powering them with a decent 9v bb that makes the diff....

I believe that mr Rocksuitcase is in error...

You're quoting a different figure - rocksuitcase is quoting the output impedance - meaning the signal coming in from the mic tends to be very hot.  The issue he is identifying is, I believe, the mic would just straight up overload the inputs it was going into, regardless of levels. 

But someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[Todd R]

That is a different figure being quoted, but the idea of output impedance is also not the issue.

The spec'd output impedance of both the 4060 and 4061 is 30-40 ohms according to DPA.  The issue is the sensitivity of the mics, or the overall output.

The 4060 is spec'd at 20mv/Pa (a Pascal is 94db SPL), or about -34dbV.  The 4061 is spec'd at 6mv/Pa, or about -44dbV. 

If you expect a 124db SPL at the show (pretty damn loud), it'd be 30db more than the spec'd 1 Pascal.  So the 4060 without any gain from a preamp would put out -4dbV, and the 4061 would put out -14dbV.

A lot of recorders (at least on their line level inputs) and preamps can accept a -4dbV signal, so you wouldn't necessarily overload a preamp or recorder by running 4060s.  If you send the 4060s to a preamp in the above case and applied 12 db of gain, you'd have a signal of +8dbV sent to your recorder.  Even sent to the line level inputs, that might overload the recorder.

FWIW, I owned and used the 4060s for awhile and never had a problem with overload.

BTW:  the sensitivity of the Beyer mc930's and mc950's (I own the 950s) is 40mv/Pa, twice the output level of the 4060s (ie, 6db hotter).  Likewise, the AKG 480 with the ck61/62/63 caps also has an output of 40mv/Pa, unless you engage the pad on the mic. 

[page]

strong post w/ lots of good math

to add to Todd's post; circa 120spl is the upper limit of audience taping in my experience. I've got a set of caps which trend to 125 and 123 as their max and I havn't yet run the pads for far-field taping nor have I overloaded preamps or adcs that that I've calibrated to overload at the mic's overload point. I have run the pads (which get me up to around 140spl) when I run stage lip or onstage for stuff like brass horns or drums.

Always wear hearing protection. 

oh, and I <3 this page.

[page]

Still, I love DPAs.  But, I heard a couple of recording lately with Milabs and thought they sounded terrific.  And, yes, I have been jonsing for a new pair of low profile mics.  First, I thought a CMR set was going to be the ticket.  But, then I saw the used 4023s.  And, then I read some reviews on the 2011s.  I am really leaning in that direction personally, especially if DPA starts with remote capsule options.  But, then yesterday I found the links at a price I thought was to good to be true after and now I am considering those. 

The DPA with the MMA pre makes a nice sounding recording.  But, in all fairness, I have only heard them in a jazz setting. 

As you can see decisions in this game will drive you crazy.  Good luck!

You already have top-flight omnis so you know what they will sound like. The problem is the 2011C mics are 3.6". Think about stealthing with that... If it's just low-pro work and not flat out stealthing, then totally buy 2011Cs, and bring them to FloydFest so we can swap caps for a set.

(but it's a valid Q, the milabs are nice, so are the DPAs as you're aware. I'm not sure one is inherently the clear winner here, it's a "right tool for the right job" question).

[Todd R]

In no way trying to talk anyone out of using Milabs:

The low-pro mic cable DPA makes to go with the new reference series helps --



Maybe not getting the 2011c into stealth territory, but makes them a lot nicer for low-profile FOB recording.  At $100 each, they are not at all cheap, but between the connector and the cable, that makes the 2011c or 4011c as low profile as it can get.

That said, I did used to stealth with neumann km184s when I had them (with a custom made set of mic cables that were messy as hell, but akin to the DAO4010 cables).