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Author Topic: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert  (Read 527 times)

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Offline if_then_else

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Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« on: April 07, 2018, 04:05:02 AM »
So, I'm recording two cinematic concerts of some long standing friends of mine abroad.

The first night at a new, purpose-built theatre went really well. I set up my stuff
(omnis and hypers into a mixpre-6) next to the soundboard. Their FOH was
recording a  multitrack-matrix to her MacBook too - but rather to document the
current state of the performance than to actually release the show at some point.
These are in fact some preview shows and the studio version  of the score hasn't even
been recorded yet.

Long story short: The second show will take place at the National Museum of Cinema
and I don't know beforehand wether I will setup my stuff on-stage or again at the board.

Now, if I have to set up my gear on-stage or stage-lip: The thing is that 3 band
members will set up their stuff (in line) stage-left while the three others will stand
stage-right - with a huge empty space in between (to enable people's views onto
the screen).

If I were to run subcards on stage/stage-lip:
Would you rather run them in NOS or in X-Y in this specific situation?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 04:45:20 AM by if_then_else »

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2018, 02:38:34 PM »

Subcards need separation to get the stereo effect. Crossed in XY will come out sounding rather mono since a large part of the pickup area of each microphone overlaps no matter how wide the angle of incidence used.

I would go with NOS or a larger spread with lesser included angle.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 03:11:39 PM »
Set the required stereo image by selecting the mic's pattern, angle and distance. If you want musicians on the right side to be only in the right channel and musicians on the left side to be only in the left channel then use directional patterns and great distance/angle.

If you don't want hole in the middle of stereo image use less directional patterns and smaller spacing or xy. There are specific values of stereo image, polar patterns, angles and spacing in the document Stereo Zoom of Michael Williams. This document is somewhere in the forum. If you will not find it, let me know, i will look for it.

The second option how to avoid hole in the middle, that I can think of,  but I have never tried it, should be to record each side of musicians with one coincident stereo pair. These two pairs have to be far apart to avoid comb filtering during mixing. I think the minimal 3: 1 rule applies. 3 parts are distance between two stereo pairs, 1 part is distance between stereo pair and musicians. Then you should have freedom to mix required stereo image.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 03:13:34 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 03:46:15 PM »
Set the required stereo image by selecting the mic's pattern, angle and distance. If you want musicians on the right side to be only in the right channel and musicians on the left side to be only in the left channel then use directional patterns and great distance/angle.

If you don't want hole in the middle of stereo image use less directional patterns and smaller spacing or xy. There are specific values of stereo image, polar patterns, angles and spacing in the document Stereo Zoom of Michael Williams. This document is somewhere in the forum. If you will not find it, let me know, i will look for it.

^ That's the basics for a stereo-pair microphone configurations using directional mics, and applies generally. But this is different in that the performers are split into two widely spaced groups.

This is one option to deal with that-
Quote
The second option how to avoid hole in the middle, that I can think of,  but I have never tried it, should be to record each side of musicians with one coincident stereo pair. These two pairs have to be far apart to avoid comb filtering during mixing. I think the minimal 3: 1 rule applies. 3 parts are distance between two stereo pairs, 1 part is distance between stereo pair and musicians. Then you should have freedom to mix required stereo image.

That can work, and you may want to point each pair so that one mic-pair portrays the left group in it's left to center playback image region and the other mic-pair portrays the right group in it's center to right playback image region.  When mixed, the two groups will then remain on their appropriate sides, but with sufficient overlap trough the center.  Conversely, if both pairs are centered directly each group, they will fully overlap each other in the resulting mix.  Either way could work based on your subjective choice of what's appropriate.


If it were me I'd probably space the subcards very widely so there is one in front of and in close proximity to each group of musicians, then put your hypers in X/Y at center stage with a typical 90 degree angle or less.  That way you get good acoustic proximity to each group of musicians without too much room in the subcards and strong left/right separation of the two groups, then the not overly wide coincident X/Y pair in the center can be used to glue it all together, avoiding a hole.   You get good flexibility and coverage that way, especially if they are acoustic instruments, so the two widely spaced groups should not sound overly distant and swamped with room 'verb.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 06:37:29 PM »
If it were me I'd probably space the subcards very widely so there is one in front of and in close proximity to each group of musicians, then put your hypers in X/Y at center stage with a typical 90 degree angle or less.  That way you get good acoustic proximity to each group of musicians without too much room in the subcards and strong left/right separation of the two groups, then the not overly wide coincident X/Y pair in the center can be used to glue it all together, avoiding a hole.   You get good flexibility and coverage that way, especially if they are acoustic instruments, so the two widely spaced groups should not sound overly distant and swamped with room 'verb.

Yes, this solution is better. When we use two xy pairs of microphones, there is a risk that some instrument will be dominant due to it's proximity. And that cannot be corrected after. Maybe the negative of one xy pair is that musicians in the same group will have a small stereo separation when the groups are far a part. On the other hand, stereo separation of whole groups can be easily set in post and next advantage is possibility of influence of ratio of instruments/room.

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 09:24:11 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions.

In fact, the band went with a more 'conventional' setup on the second night


I've mounted my two sets of mics directly FOB while their FOH recorded
several isolated channels from the digital Midas (M 32 or M 32R) board
into her Zoom H6.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 12:04:09 AM by if_then_else »

Offline kuba e

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2018, 05:51:18 AM »
Thank you for photo. I can imagine it better now. The cinematic concert looks very interesting. Do the musicians have a music notes or is it little improvisation?

I would do the same, mount mics directly FOB. When the stage is too wide with a lot of musicians, it is too difficult for me to record stage lip and have all instruments well balanced.

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2018, 09:19:29 AM »
Essentially, the set-up was like this (sorry for the ASCII art):

... for night I:

                  ------------
      |synths                   drums     
      |                                          
      |sax                        bass     
      |                                      
      |guitar                     guitar          


... for night II:    
                  ---------------
      |         synths   drums       
      |                                         
      |     sax                bass       
      |                                         
      |   guitar                     guitar        


[The picture above is from night II.]

As far as these film scores are concerned:

Occasionally, the National Museum of Cinema in Turin commissions new scores by contemporary bands/artists for some of the silent movies from their archive (like Cabira, Rapsodia Satanica, Il Fuoco, The Decay of The House of Usher, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Nosferatu, The Last Command, ...).

Usually, these aren't impromptu performances (as there will have been rehearsals prior to the show). However, these scores do differ somewhat from the regular output of the bands involved. I've attended a couple of these cinematic concerts before and they've always been fun to watch.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 09:22:06 AM by if_then_else »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Setting up on-stage / stage lip for a cinematic concert
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2018, 09:22:33 AM »
+T for ASCII!
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