Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)  (Read 29615 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #150 on: October 12, 2019, 07:51:16 AM »
^ My interpretation of the block diagram is that, in 32-bit float mode, any gain is post ADC, so totally immaterial. Voltronic appears to view it the same way (see several posts above). Maybe worth testing that before investing too much time futzing around with it...

I don't see any other way that diagram could be interpreted.  A Zoom rep also said quite clearly that preamp gain is not adjustable in 32-bit float mode.  This was in one of the NAB videos posted early in this thread.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q | AT 853
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Zoom F6 | Sony PCM-M10

Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #151 on: October 12, 2019, 09:17:33 AM »

Thanks for the report.  So it sounds like that if you set the track knob to REC LEVEL, it becomes a post-ADC fader for the ISO tracks and the L/R mix.  In Reference, you only have a fader for L/R.


To be a bit clearer: when the track knobs are set for REC LEVEL you "trim" or "fade" (it says "fader" on the screen) the ISO tracks with the knobs, so of course also the L/R tracks, which are then 3 dB higher than the ISOs with 1 panned left and 2 panned right as I had them.  In the menu, you go to REC > LR Track > LR FADER which takes you to a screen where you can fade the LR tracks AND/OR the Line Out tracks (stereo pairs, one fade for each pair).

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #152 on: October 12, 2019, 12:43:24 PM »
If this is the case, why not just build a 32 bit machine WITHOUT any premaps and sell them for a lot less money?

I'm pretty sure that the preamps are active in 32-bit float mode, just at a fixed gain level that you cannot adjust.

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.

Think of how concerned you were about your upcoming recordings, and how you didn't want to take the risk of 32-bit float exclusively the first time out.  Your reluctance to jump in with both feet was fully justified, because it was something with which you did not have direct experience, and you didn't want to risk ruining your session on an unknown factor.  Multiply that feeling by many thousands more customers.  This type of recording is still new and foreign to most people, and if it ever gets adopted as the new de facto standard, that won't happen overnight.  Until then, I expect to see more devices that allow recording in both modes.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q | AT 853
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Zoom F6 | Sony PCM-M10

Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #153 on: October 12, 2019, 12:45:00 PM »

Thanks for the report.  So it sounds like that if you set the track knob to REC LEVEL, it becomes a post-ADC fader for the ISO tracks and the L/R mix.  In Reference, you only have a fader for L/R.


To be a bit clearer: when the track knobs are set for REC LEVEL you "trim" or "fade" (it says "fader" on the screen) the ISO tracks with the knobs, so of course also the L/R tracks, which are then 3 dB higher than the ISOs with 1 panned left and 2 panned right as I had them.  In the menu, you go to REC > LR Track > LR FADER which takes you to a screen where you can fade the LR tracks AND/OR the Line Out tracks (stereo pairs, one fade for each pair).

Got it.  I think I am going to start making myself a cheat sheet for things that aren't easily explained by the manual.

One thing that impresses me about this little recorder: It really does give you a "pro" level of options and flexibility.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q | AT 853
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Zoom F6 | Sony PCM-M10

Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1721
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #154 on: October 12, 2019, 03:45:22 PM »

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.



You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline Paul Isaacs

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2019, 04:14:06 PM »

FYI, 32-bit float files are pretty widely supported... all the following apps work correctly with 32-bit float files. This is not an extensive list, just the audio apps I've tried up to now....

Adobe Audition
Adobe Premiere Pro
Apple FCPX
Audacity
Izotope RX7   
Protools 12   
Reaper
Steinberg Cubase
Steinberg Nuendo

Even the Mac Finder will play 'em!

The only audio app that I'm currently aware of that doesn't handle them properly is Logic.

Offline Brian G

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1670
  • Gender: Male
  • Yeah I'm an AKG slut....
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2019, 05:22:27 PM »

FYI, 32-bit float files are pretty widely supported... all the following apps work correctly with 32-bit float files. This is not an extensive list, just the audio apps I've tried up to now....

Adobe Audition
Adobe Premiere Pro
Apple FCPX
Audacity
Izotope RX7   
Protools 12   
Reaper
Steinberg Cubase
Steinberg Nuendo

Even the Mac Finder will play 'em!

The only audio app that I'm currently aware of that doesn't handle them properly is Logic.

I can add Soundforge Pro 11 to that list.....
Mics: AKG c480b's, c460b's, c452eb's ( A60's, A51's ,A61's CK61, CK63, CK1, CK3 CK22, CK8), AKG C414 XLII/ST, AKG CK1x, CK3x M46,  Church Audio CA-11 ( Card and Omni)
Cables: Segue Dogstar Cables, Darktrain Silver Cables, Canare Starquad Cables
Pres: Lunatec V3, Naiant BiggerBox, Edirol UA-5, CA-9100 
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre 10II, Mixpre-6, Sony M10, Sony D50 ,Sony PCM-A10, Tascam DR-100mkii,Tascam DR-40, Edirol R-44
Playback: Fiio X5 v2, Fiio A3 v2, AKG 240MKII, AKG Y50BT

Offline EmRR

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2019, 05:25:09 PM »

FYI, 32-bit float files are pretty widely supported... all the following apps work correctly with 32-bit float files. This is not an extensive list, just the audio apps I've tried up to now....

Adobe Audition
Adobe Premiere Pro
Apple FCPX
Audacity
Izotope RX7   
Protools 12   
Reaper
Steinberg Cubase
Steinberg Nuendo

Even the Mac Finder will play 'em!

The only audio app that I'm currently aware of that doesn't handle them properly is Logic.

I can add Soundforge Pro 11 to that list.....

...and Digital Performer
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gordon

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Gender: Male
    • my list
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2019, 05:57:44 PM »
wavelab 6.1 seems to work just fine as well.
Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II

https://archive.org/details/fav-gordonlw

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2019, 07:41:30 PM »
Foobar2000 works perfectly with these files also...

...but may I suggest that if we are going to list all of the apps that can handle 32-bit float files, we do it in a separate thread before we get 100 posts in here about it?

That said, I appreciate Paul chiming in to share this.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q | AT 853
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Zoom F6 | Sony PCM-M10

Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2019, 08:01:26 PM »

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.



You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.

I get where you are coming from, but your sentence I emphasized is exactly the reason why I think these first portable 32-bit float point recorders also have 24-bit modes.  A secondary reason may be that there are still some DAWs or other audio apps that do not support 32-bit float files, such as Logic while Paul pointed out.

Once all of the major software players support the format natively and people are used to the slightly different recording and post workflows, we might see a change.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q | AT 853
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Zoom F6 | Sony PCM-M10

Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline jerryfreak

  • Trade Count: (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3873
  • the data guy
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2019, 11:21:31 PM »

...but may I suggest that if we are going to list all of the apps that can handle 32-bit float files, we do it in a separate thread before we get 100 posts in here about it?

would prob be easier to list any you can find that dont support it. should be just about every editor released in the last decade. its been around for awhile, soundforge has supported it since at least 2004
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 11:24:48 PM by jerryfreak »
team schoeps, dpa, benchmark, and zoom mostly... subject to change without warning

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1721
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2019, 12:18:18 AM »

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.



You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.

I get where you are coming from, but your sentence I emphasized is exactly the reason why I think these first portable 32-bit float point recorders also have 24-bit modes.  A secondary reason may be that there are still some DAWs or other audio apps that do not support 32-bit float files, such as Logic while Paul pointed out.

Once all of the major software players support the format natively and people are used to the slightly different recording and post workflows, we might see a change.

I see but do not agree. My feeling is unless the second file could allow different gain settings, you have to set gain the way we have always set gain (not that we all do it the same way but none of us want to distort) which is to not clip and therefore one cannot take advantage of the 32bit float abilities, so what is the point? As for programs not supporting the technology, that is probably short term, but if I did not have that available, I'd stay away from the technology until I did.  That said there are lots of current programs available and some are free. I do see your point though, but I am looking at the tecnhology for what it might allow me to do, and recording using 24bit settings takes that ability away.
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline EmRR

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2019, 10:13:00 AM »
My feeling is unless the second file could allow different gain settings, you have to set gain the way we have always set gain (not that we all do it the same way but none of us want to distort) which is to not clip and therefore one cannot take advantage of the 32bit float abilities, so what is the point?

This has been one of my points all along, and it's felt like it's fallen on deaf ears.  The point is not to go hotter but to have wider latitude for manipulation in post.  One should still never clip, or even minimize headroom; that's not the point of this technology! 

If anything, the point is to be able to go lower, because you can turn it up to whatever without the traditional penalty.   I see where that complicates the plans of anyone trying to print a final on the live pass, and it may have to be accepted that this inserts a pass of post-processing by nature. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1721
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2019, 11:19:05 AM »
This may be hard to explain clearly, but to be really simple, but wherever I set gain on a 32bit float recording does not seem to affect the recording at all. It records a file that I can add or subtract gain to but the properties or qualities of the original recording do not seem to change at all. It just gets louder or softer. It does not seem to get compressed when I record at higher gain nor does it get noisy when I record low. It feels like I am just enlarging or reducing a set of fixed points.

Again hard to describe and also hard to come to firm conclusions after a dozen or so outings versus 50 years of recording, but the bottom line is the recordings sound very good and sonically the same whether recorded at a high gain or a low gain.

I think that is why on the Zoom F6 you cannot select gain while recording 32 bit float. Because in reality it is recorded at a fixed level that allows manipulation in post that does not change the overall sonic relationship between the loudest and softest parts of any segemnt of the recording.

I am not saying that what I explain here is exactly correct, but that is what it feels like working these files for both the Zoom and SD machines with 32bit float.
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.063 seconds with 56 queries.
© 2002-2020 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF