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Author Topic: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!  (Read 3417 times)

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Offline shpy

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2020, 10:17:27 AM »
Chris said My mics with power converter inside. Last guest that my mics disort due to lack of rollbass-of. Deep Bass saunds could make distorsion. So i should use bass off pads.. but im afraid to imagin how ugly my setup should look. Rollbass off plus attenuator pad
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 01:36:16 PM by shpy »
SP-CMC-2-XLR -> Shure A15AS -> Olympus LS-100

Offline kuba e

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2020, 08:18:43 PM »
Bass roll off should help if your microphone's output is too hot. But the signal is -16db in the output of recorder's preamp. I think here is no problem. (Do not use preset bass roll off. It is better to reduce lows in post because you can reduce it precisely while listening.)

The distortion could occur:
-in the microphone when the maximum loudness is exceeded. We can exclude it because your microphone specification is "Maximum Input Sound Level- 151dB"
-in the microphone when it is not properly powered. You should check your phantom power settings in the recorder. You need 48 V according specification on the web page.
-in the recorder's preamp input. This can be assessed by someone who understands the technical data. Unfortunately, I don't know this. I guess there's no trouble here.
-in the recorder's preamp output.  We can exclude this because the recording sample is -16db.
-Also check if you have set any limiter or compressor in the recorder. Turn it all off.

Try to ask a sound guy from your club for help. Explain him your problem. He could find a way how to test your microphones/recorder.
Also you can ask Chris. Send him your recording sample with distortion and tell him what recorder you're using. He knows well the technical parameters of his microphones. He can assess if they are compatible with your recorder and for how loud music it fits.

Offline shpy

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2020, 04:56:50 AM »
Bass roll off should help if your microphone's output is too hot. But the signal is -16db in the output of recorder's preamp. I think here is no problem. (Do not use preset bass roll off. It is better to reduce lows in post because you can reduce it precisely while listening.)

The distortion could occur:
-in the microphone when the maximum loudness is exceeded. We can exclude it because your microphone specification is "Maximum Input Sound Level- 151dB"
-in the microphone when it is not properly powered. You should check your phantom power settings in the recorder. You need 48 V according specification on the web page.
-in the recorder's preamp input. This can be assessed by someone who understands the technical data. Unfortunately, I don't know this. I guess there's no trouble here.
-in the recorder's preamp output.  We can exclude this because the recording sample is -16db.
-Also check if you have set any limiter or compressor in the recorder. Turn it all off.

Try to ask a sound guy from your club for help. Explain him your problem. He could find a way how to test your microphones/recorder.
Also you can ask Chris. Send him your recording sample with distortion and tell him what recorder you're using. He knows well the technical parameters of his microphones. He can assess if they are compatible with your recorder and for how loud music it fits.

I use 48v
My recorder is new, didint brought used.
I dont use any limiters

Iv sent chris examples several times. First he said i need attenuator, now he gues i need bass rolloff. Nobody can help me..
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 04:58:38 AM by shpy »
SP-CMC-2-XLR -> Shure A15AS -> Olympus LS-100

Offline shpy

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2020, 05:29:36 AM »
SP-CMC-2-XLR -> Shure A15AS -> Olympus LS-100

Offline kuba e

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2020, 09:50:29 AM »
I found this on Chris web:

https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U
Quote
Powering Options:
....

3-However, if your recorder/mixer, etc. supplies phantom power, you can add the high SPL modified XLR connector option. Each mic has it's own XLR connector and cable and microphones ordered this way will not work with "plug in power" or standard battery module as shown above.

4-For intensely loud situations, consistent with highly amplified concerts at close distances to the speakers, you can add set of Ultra high SPL power modules (AT8538 or AT8531) with locking connectors between the mics and the power modules. In this configuration, the mics remain balanced. With the AT8538 modules, the microphones will plug into device (mixer, mic preamp, recorder, etc) that supplies 9-52v phantom power. With the AT8531, the microphones will run on each modules standard AA battery or 9-52v phantom power. This configuration provides the highest level of SPL capability. The output of the modules are XLRM plugs. To connect the portable recorder with miniplug input, select this cable.

Ask Chris:

1. What is the the max SPL for SP-CMC-2-XLR?
According to the above it looks like that Chris's modified xlr connectors are not designed to power mics at high SPL (sound pressure level). That would also explain why your friend has no trouble with the same microphone powered by battery box. On other hand Chris lists max SPL 151 db for SP-CMC-2-XLR on his web. That would be more than enough. (https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2-XLR)

2. Have modified xlr connectors unbalanced output? I'm not sure, maybe unbalanced xlr output can cause some recorders trouble.

3. The sample with distortion has -16db headroom. Why he is suggesting bass roll off?

Feel free to resend my post to Chris.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 09:54:26 AM by kuba e »

Offline shpy

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2020, 10:29:59 AM »
I found this on Chris web:

https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U
Quote
Powering Options:
....

3-However, if your recorder/mixer, etc. supplies phantom power, you can add the high SPL modified XLR connector option. Each mic has it's own XLR connector and cable and microphones ordered this way will not work with "plug in power" or standard battery module as shown above.

4-For intensely loud situations, consistent with highly amplified concerts at close distances to the speakers, you can add set of Ultra high SPL power modules (AT8538 or AT8531) with locking connectors between the mics and the power modules. In this configuration, the mics remain balanced. With the AT8538 modules, the microphones will plug into device (mixer, mic preamp, recorder, etc) that supplies 9-52v phantom power. With the AT8531, the microphones will run on each modules standard AA battery or 9-52v phantom power. This configuration provides the highest level of SPL capability. The output of the modules are XLRM plugs. To connect the portable recorder with miniplug input, select this cable.

Ask Chris:

1. What is the the max SPL for SP-CMC-2-XLR?
According to the above it looks like that Chris's modified xlr connectors are not designed to power mics at high SPL (sound pressure level). That would also explain why your friend has no trouble with the same microphone powered by battery box. On other hand Chris lists max SPL 151 db for SP-CMC-2-XLR on his web. That would be more than enough. (https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2-XLR)

2. Have modified xlr connectors unbalanced output? I'm not sure, maybe unbalanced xlr output can cause some recorders trouble.

3. The sample with distortion has -16db headroom. Why he is suggesting bass roll off?

Feel free to resend my post to Chris.

Thanks for helping :)
yep my mics now, according to Chris can hand 151db, but he also says that some high bass can ruin recording (exceed 151db) ;/ and now he suggesting me to replace my xlr conectors to AT8538 conectors.

i thinking my next mics will be https://www.thomann.de/gb/se_electronics_se8_stereo_set.htm, with PAD and low cut.
SP-CMC-2-XLR -> Shure A15AS -> Olympus LS-100

Offline kuba e

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2020, 04:12:50 PM »
It isn't serious from Chris. It looks like modified XLR connector is not able to properly power a microphone for high SPL. If you want to tape loud music you shouldn't buy SP-CMC-2-XLR. Maybe you are not alone. Chris has to correct it.

You can reterminate your mics. But it is complicated. If it's true that SP-CMC-2-XLR has lower SPL than as indicated, Chris should take them back.
I don't know SE mics. Look in the yard sale here too. Let us know how it turns out. Good luck and happy taping.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 04:45:47 PM by kuba e »

Offline shpy

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2020, 06:29:09 PM »
Sad that im from europe and its to expensive to send mics just for test.. becouse of duty customs. I pay 30% more every time from price sound profetional declare..
SP-CMC-2-XLR -> Shure A15AS -> Olympus LS-100

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2020, 07:31:23 PM »

yep my mics now, according to Chris can hand 151db, but he also says that some high bass can ruin recording (exceed 151db) ;/ and now he suggesting me to replace my xlr conectors to AT8538 conectors.


151 dB is extremely high, and that max SPL is higher than 80% of the rigs anybody here runs

he must be mistaken (or hes quoting you some arbitrarily high number at some very high distortion value)
team schoeps, dpa, benchmark, and zoom mostly... subject to change without warning

Offline if_then_else

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2020, 03:56:45 AM »
These or the official specifications for the AT831(R) and AT831(B) versions. N.B. that the frequency response, maximum input sound levels and dynamic range values are different from the ones published for the SP-CMC-2-XLRs on the soundprofessionals.com web site. There might be some SP-specific customisations with the SP-CMC-2-XLR mics- but I doubt they would make such a big difference.

That said, "141 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D." respectively "135 dB / 121 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D." should still be sufficient for your purposes. Therefore, as "kuba e" has already suggested, make sure to check first whether or not the batteries in the recorder drain too quickly.

https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/c9398ce4908c7ca5/p52750_at831r_spec.pdf
https://images.static-thomann.de/pics/atg/atgdata/document/specs/115362.pdf


Offline shpy

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2020, 04:24:03 AM »
These or the official specifications for the AT831(R) and AT831(B) versions. N.B. that the frequency response, maximum input sound levels and dynamic range values are different from the ones published for the SP-CMC-2-XLRs on the soundprofessionals.com web site. There might be some SP-specific customisations with the SP-CMC-2-XLR mics- but I doubt they would make such a big difference.

That said, "141 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D." respectively "135 dB / 121 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D." should still be sufficient for your purposes. Therefore, as "kuba e" has already suggested, make sure to check first whether or not the batteries in the recorder drain too quickly.

https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/c9398ce4908c7ca5/p52750_at831r_spec.pdf
https://images.static-thomann.de/pics/atg/atgdata/document/specs/115362.pdf

At that night i recorded three bands with to diferent batteries and result was same. One battery hold about 2,5h and i took picture that shows recorder outputs 47v.
SP-CMC-2-XLR -> Shure A15AS -> Olympus LS-100

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2020, 06:57:51 AM »
idle voltage means less than actual voltage with a mic on it

some drop as low as 30V (which really should still be fine)
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Offline kuba e

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2020, 08:35:34 AM »
Olympus LS100 is a quality recorder. Yes, it may be a faulty piece. But rather Chris's answers and some data on the site are suspicious. His answers are unreliable. Is he manufacturer of microphones? If somebody know him, it would be good to get his direct statement.

Shpy, I would ask for a refund and send mics back. The reason for refund: SP-CMC-2-XLR max. SPL is much lower than specified. Or Chris have to seriously explain it.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 08:45:26 AM by kuba e »

Offline kuba e

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2020, 08:44:52 AM »
To confusion with bass roll off. I can only think of two reasons when to turn it on for ambient recording:

- You don't want to do post processing.
Then you can preventively turn on a preset bass roll off. But it's blind. Preset bass roll off may harm the recording by reducing too much bass or may be weak. It is the best to do this in post processing. You can set it exactly right according to the listening.

- The microphone output is too hot and overload your preamp/recorder.
You recognize this easily. The red LED on the recorder will flash to indicate clipping. So you set the preamp gain to a minimum. If the LED still identifies clipping, the signal at the recorder input is too hot. Also at home, you can see in the audio program that the waveform reaching 0 db and peaks are cut off.
The standard solution is to plug in an attenuators pads before recorder input. If you have no pads, you can save situation with a provisory solution bass roll off.  The electrical circuit of bass roll off is placed before the preamp in your recorder. So the signal will be attenuated by reducing the bass before entering to the preamp.

(But Shpy's case is different. Because improper power supply of microphone, the distortion occurs in a microphone's capsule.  More specifically, distortion occurs in the FET. It is an electronic component that is in a microphone's capsule. If the FET is not properly powered, it is causing distortion. This shows up just at high SPL.)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 08:56:38 AM by kuba e »

Offline beatkilla

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Re: brickwalling using XLR conections. Help!
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2020, 09:32:59 AM »
There are tons of recordings made with those mics terminated directly to a stereo miniplug that do not have any distortion problems.

Why not get rid of the xlr's.

 

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