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Author Topic: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?  (Read 1228 times)

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I haven't taped a show in 15+ years.  I'm considering getting back into it.  I'll soon have some free time (kids graduating high school & moving on to college & military), and I'm thinking about hitting more shows and recording them.

I like the idea of running 4 mics into a Wendt X4.  I wonder what it'd sound like to mount AKG 480 cardioid to the far left and far right of a T-mount, with a pair of omni mics in the middle.  Perhaps MBHO omnis in the middle?

I have an old Apogee ad500e which I believe still works fine, and I'm inclined to continue using my Tascam DA-P1 DAT recorder.

Can I get your opinions on this potential rig?  Think it would make nice recordings?

I'd need to purchase the mics and Wendt X4.  I have old AKG C1000 mics, but I'd prefer to upgrade from those.

Offline heathen

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2020, 06:17:51 PM »
First of all, definitely get back into it when shows start happening again!

I've never heard of the Wendt X4.  From a quick Google search it looks like they about $200.  Personally, for that price range in four-channel recorders I'd look at something like a used Zoom H6.  It's a perfectly capable multi-channel recorder that has proven itself.  (On a limited budget you're better off spending any additional money on mics.  While there are "better" recorders than the H6, upgrading mics will provide far more bang for your buck than a more expensive recorder.)

As for your idea about a mic configuration, I would personally be more inclined to flip things around.  A pair of omnis in the middle will be about the same as one omni.  There will likely be little to no stereo separation between the two.  I'd be more inclined to use the cardioids in the middle in an XY configuration, and then mount the omnis wide to each side.  This sort of thing has proven to sound great for others (for example, check out some of the recordings kindms and rocksuitcase have made using a similar setup).  If you want to read a LOT about these sort of setups, go here: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191953.0

One thing you might try is just getting the omnis for now, because who knows maybe you'll like the C1000s better when they're complimented by some quality omnis.

I'd also ditch the DAT.  It's an outdated format and by the time you shell out for some DAT tapes you're well on your way to paying for a Zoom H6.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 06:20:23 PM by heathen »
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2020, 06:33:03 PM »
Thanks for the advice about the Zoom H6 as a recorder, and the configuration of the mics.
I suppose I'd need to figure out phantom power for 4 mics, and A/D conversion.

I'm having a hard time visualizing the entire lineage. I've been out of the game for quite a while.

I like the idea of putting some money in high quality omni mics and keeping the AKG C1000 cardis.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2020, 06:38:36 PM »
Do you have a budget in mind, botz? Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would get a Sound Devices MixPre-6, or a Zoom F6, and have a four channel, phantom equipped, all-in-one set-up. Maybe that is more than you want to send, though. Personally, I think the pre-amps and ADCs in the MixPres are really good (no experience with the Zoom, although people speak highly of it).

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2020, 06:51:30 PM »
Oooooooh holy cats. You guys are saying the A/D conversion in the Sound Devices and Zoom recorders are good enough to use. I had no idea. I had assumed I'd need an outboard A/D converter and preamp.

If that's what you're saying, then I could just run the 4 mics directly to the Sound Devices or Zoom, without the need for a separate preamp for phantom power or an external A/D converter.

I'm willing to drop like $5k on new mics, recorder, cables, mic stand, shock-mounts, etc.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2020, 07:16:00 PM »
Oooooooh holy cats. You guys are saying the A/D conversion in the Sound Devices and Zoom recorders are good enough to use. I had no idea. I had assumed I'd need an outboard A/D converter and preamp.

If that's what you're saying, then I could just run the 4 mics directly to the Sound Devices or Zoom, without the need for a separate preamp for phantom power or an external A/D converter.

I'm willing to drop like $5k on new mics, recorder, cables, mic stand, shock-mounts, etc.

Something like a the higher end Zoom recorders or any of the Sound Devices recorders certainly have sufficient built-in A/D converters, and they'll supply phantom power.  With that budget, I'd look for a used Zoom F8, F8n, or Sound Devices Mix Pre 6.  You could get any of those for well under $1,000 so you'd have a nice chunk of change leftover for mics and accessories.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2020, 07:37:45 PM »
Thanks a lot for the advice, guys. I'm looking into those recorders right now. They make a lot of sense for the type of recording I have in mind.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2020, 08:29:49 PM »
Are you planning to run just open shows or stealth too?  That would change some things since stealth is very different now with security.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2020, 08:39:14 PM »
Thanks a lot for the advice, guys. I'm looking into those recorders right now. They make a lot of sense for the type of recording I have in mind.

this is an absolute steal, imo
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1260110-REG/zoom_zf4_f4_multitack_field_recorder.html
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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2020, 08:47:26 PM »
Are you planning to run just open shows or stealth too? 
I don't think I'm going to stealth record shows.   I've always enjoyed recording openly.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2020, 09:14:28 PM »
Thanks a lot for the advice, guys. I'm looking into those recorders right now. They make a lot of sense for the type of recording I have in mind.

this is an absolute steal, imo
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1260110-REG/zoom_zf4_f4_multitack_field_recorder.html


The F4 is a great recorder.  If you can get by with "only" four channels it's hard to beat for the money.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2020, 09:32:49 PM »
it has 6 channels actually
4 line/P48 on XLR/TRS combo jacks+ a stereo minijack input
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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2020, 07:56:05 AM »
Drop the the DAT,  grab just any newer flash card/ SD card based recorder with phantom and off u go,  or a hand held recorder and use your pre in front of it.   KEEP IT SIMPLE
needin some fishhead music!

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Offline BradleyJY15

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2020, 06:01:34 PM »
I just replaced my whole rig this winter, except the mic stand.

For around $3,700, I bought all new:

MixPre-6ii
Schoeps MK22 Caps
Cables
Shock Mounts
Wind Screens
SD Cards
Power Supply
And tons of other accessories

Good luck, have fun.
Schoeps MK22 -> Nbob Actives -> Naiant PFA -> SD MixPre-6ii

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2020, 06:20:47 PM »
I just replaced my whole rig this winter, except the mic stand.

For around $3,700, I bought all new:

MixPre-6ii
Schoeps MK22 Caps
Cables
Shock Mounts
Wind Screens
SD Cards
Power Supply
And tons of other accessories

Good luck, have fun.

Sweet rig.  Unless something breaks or there's some huge leap forward in technology, there's no upgrading needed.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2020, 07:12:25 PM »
I just replaced my whole rig this winter, except the mic stand.

For around $3,700, I bought all new:

MixPre-6ii
Schoeps MK22 Caps
Cables
Shock Mounts
Wind Screens
SD Cards
Power Supply
And tons of other accessories

Good luck, have fun.

That's a big boy rig.  Welcome to the team.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2020, 09:37:30 PM »
Ssssooooo I've been digesting all your feedback so far. Here's what I'm thinking about buying/doing:

used Porta Brace bag
cables from that guy on this site who makes them with 90° XLR connections
mic stand and T-bar (to hold 4 mics)
AKG C1000 cardi mics (I already own) at far left and far right, pointed just to the outside of the PA speakers
two MBHO 440 cardi mics in the middle in XY, DIN, or ORTF position
shock mounts for 4 mics
new windscreens
Sound Devices MixPre 6
external power for the MixPre 6


I'm ditching the concept of using omni mics. Instead, I'll use the MBHO 440s to fill in the "hole in the middle".

I'll probably end up upgrading the AKG C1000s with AKG 480s.

For a LONG time, my favorite recordings have been made with MBHOs and AKG mics, so I figure I might as well try combining the two brands into one recording.
And BradleyYJ15, that's nicely done!
I definitely welcome any/all advice, criticism, feedback, etc.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2020, 10:03:24 PM »
Ssssooooo I've been digesting all your feedback so far. Here's what I'm thinking about buying/doing:

used Porta Brace bag
cables from that guy on this site who makes them with 90° XLR connections
mic stand and T-bar (to hold 4 mics)
AKG C1000 cardi mics (I already own) at far left and far right, pointed just to the outside of the PA speakers
two MBHO 440 cardi mics in the middle in XY, DIN, or ORTF position
shock mounts for 4 mics
new windscreens
Sound Devices MixPre 6
external power for the MixPre 6


I'm ditching the concept of using omni mics. Instead, I'll use the MBHO 440s to fill in the "hole in the middle".

I'll probably end up upgrading the AKG C1000s with AKG 480s.

For a LONG time, my favorite recordings have been made with MBHOs and AKG mics, so I figure I might as well try combining the two brands into one recording.
And BradleyYJ15, that's nicely done!
I definitely welcome any/all advice, criticism, feedback, etc.

Seems like a fine plan.  Some might quibble with the mic setup, but follow your interest and do what makes YOU happy.  Besides, you should have plenty of money leftover that if you decide to go in a different direction with mics you'll still be able to do that down the road.  (If I can offer one suggestion, maybe consider investigating subcards for the widely spaced mics...I'm pretty sure MBHO makes a subcard cap.  Then you could have your AKG cards in the middle.  Just something to ponder for the future.)
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2020, 10:05:48 PM »
lots of room to grow with that

and you can even patch 2 channels from neighboring tapers to try out new flavors
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Offline BradleyJY15

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2020, 10:31:09 PM »
I just replaced my whole rig this winter, except the mic stand.

For around $3,700, I bought all new:

MixPre-6ii
Schoeps MK22 Caps
Cables
Shock Mounts
Wind Screens
SD Cards
Power Supply
And tons of other accessories

Good luck, have fun.

Sweet rig.  Unless something breaks or there's some huge leap forward in technology, there's no upgrading needed.

Thanks.  I built this with the idea of adding MK41 or 41Vs in mind.  I much prefer the MK22 when you have the appropriate source, but I want to have the hypers too.

I have to thank Noah (phishrabbi) for helping me build this rig. It is great.
Schoeps MK22 -> Nbob Actives -> Naiant PFA -> SD MixPre-6ii

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2020, 10:34:51 PM »
I've never heard or "subcards". Is that a synonym of hypercardioid ?

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2020, 10:43:31 PM »
subcards/"wide cards" are between card and omni. slightly less directional than a cardioid with more low end.

hypercards/supercards/shotguns are highly directional mics (at the expense of the quality of sounds coming from the sides
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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2020, 10:50:43 PM »
subcards/"wide cards" are between card and omni. slightly less directional than a cardioid with more low end.

hypercards/supercards/shotguns are highly directional mics (at the expense of the quality of sounds coming from the sides
Okay, so pretty much the opposite of hypers. Cool. Did not even know that exists.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2020, 11:02:16 PM »
the schoeps MK22s mentioned above are an example of "open cards", which differ slightly from their MK21 " wide cards". Both would be considered "subcardioid"

some other popular ones are DPA 4015/4027/4028, Line Audio CM3. also AT853s have card caps

tons of tapes on archive to check out

subcards can sound amazing in the right spot
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 11:51:43 PM by jerryfreak »
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Offline yug du nord

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2020, 11:44:10 PM »
To keep the Schoeps accurate....

MK22 (Open Cardioid):

New directional pattern: Open Cardioid
Optimal combination of directionality (MK 4 cardioid) and warm sound characteristics (MK 21 wide cardioid)
Natural sound quality, due to highly consistent polar diagram across the frequency range

The "Open Cardioid" pickup pattern was introduced by SCHOEPS in 2008. It lies between the classic cardioid and the wide cardioid, achieving both a fair amount of directivity and very natural sound quality. Many years' experience of professional recording engineers with the range of Schoeps cardioids has played a large role in the development process. Meanwhile the MK 22 has become a preferred soloist and spot microphone, thus becoming an alternative to the "classic" MK 4.

-------------------------

MK21 (Wide Cardioid):

The directivity of the wide cardioid lies between the omni and the cardioid. The idea behind their development is to combine the advantages of these two patterns. The low-frequency behaviour of the MK 21 is better than that of the cardioid, and proximity effect is less pronounced. The wide cardioid polar pattern is extremely consistent across the frequency range. Laterally-arriving direct sound and reflections are picked up without added coloration. The MK 21 is a very well-liked capsule. It is preferred when a slight directional effect and a warm, natural sound image are desired. Over the years it has become an integral part of the audio engineer's toolkit.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 11:49:22 PM by yug du nord »
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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2020, 08:18:06 AM »
Thanks for the good explanations of the subcardioid family,... which I didn't even know existed.
As much as I'd love to point this kinds of mics at the outside edges of the PA stacks, I doubt a new pair of Schoeps etc is within my budget. So I'll likely just stick with 4 cardioid mics for this rig.  Gotta love the idea of adding a pair of subcardioid mics to that mix at some point in the future, though.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2020, 08:22:07 AM »
check out line audio threads/posts
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2020, 09:04:10 AM »

Things have certainly changed in recent years and the need to run an outboard preamp/AD converter has become situational or use dependent. I still run a preamp sometimes but it's more about the result I want than the need to. The built in preamps on my Tascam DR701d recorder are more than adequate for live concert recording. It's the same size as the average DAT recorder and has 4 phantom powered inputs, a ton of features and runs all day on a 5V cell phone recharging battery . I paid $325 gently used. You should get good results with any of the decks mentioned - SD Mixpre6 II, Zoom F8/F4/H6, Tascam DR701d and there's more than that. DAT is dead. I bought some 32 Gb SD cards for $7 the other day.

My only advice about your mic choice is that maybe consider getting a pair with interchangeable capsules. That way you can have more pattern choices at your disposal for less money and more flexibility. My main pair right now is a set of Joly modified Oktava MK012 with hypercard, cardioid and omni capsules. Maybe a set of AKG 460 or 480 with a couple pairs of caps would be just right for you since you like the AKG sound.

Happy taping and welcome back.

Joly Mod Oktava MK012 C,H,O  or NakCM300 > Sound Devices 442 or Reference Audio Designs MS2 > Tascam DR701d
Transfers - Tascam DA30 (dats) or Nak MR2 (cassettes) > Sound Devices USB Pre

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

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Offline heathen

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2020, 10:24:07 AM »
Thanks for the good explanations of the subcardioid family,... which I didn't even know existed.
As much as I'd love to point this kinds of mics at the outside edges of the PA stacks, I doubt a new pair of Schoeps etc is within my budget. So I'll likely just stick with 4 cardioid mics for this rig.  Gotta love the idea of adding a pair of subcardioid mics to that mix at some point in the future, though.

Just in case you're unaware, you can get Schoeps caps and then get PFAs (I think?) for reasonable prices that let you avoid buying bodies at all.  I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but if you aren't aware of this approach you might be surprised at how much it can save you.

Also, if you're at all interested in subcards DEFINITELY check out the Line Audio CM3/CM4 (they're categorized by the manufacturer as cardioid but they're definitely subcards).  I can't think of any mic that gives as much bang for the buck as those.  The CM3 isn't made anymore, and good luck finding someone who is willing to part with theirs (a testament to the quality of the mics).  The CM4 is the replacement for the CM3, and the CM4 is closer to a cardioid pattern but still definitely in subcard territory.

I'd highly recommend poking your head into the oddball mic setup thread I linked earlier.  You'll find a wealth of knowledge and very helpful people who can give you some feedback on your four-mic setup idea.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline BradleyJY15

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2020, 11:50:33 AM »
Thanks for the good explanations of the subcardioid family,... which I didn't even know existed.
As much as I'd love to point this kinds of mics at the outside edges of the PA stacks, I doubt a new pair of Schoeps etc is within my budget. So I'll likely just stick with 4 cardioid mics for this rig.  Gotta love the idea of adding a pair of subcardioid mics to that mix at some point in the future, though.

Just in case you're unaware, you can get Schoeps caps and then get PFAs (I think?) for reasonable prices that let you avoid buying bodies at all.  I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but if you aren't aware of this approach you might be surprised at how much it can save you.

Also, if you're at all interested in subcards DEFINITELY check out the Line Audio CM3/CM4 (they're categorized by the manufacturer as cardioid but they're definitely subcards).  I can't think of any mic that gives as much bang for the buck as those.  The CM3 isn't made anymore, and good luck finding someone who is willing to part with theirs (a testament to the quality of the mics).  The CM4 is the replacement for the CM3, and the CM4 is closer to a cardioid pattern but still definitely in subcard territory.

I'd highly recommend poking your head into the oddball mic setup thread I linked earlier.  You'll find a wealth of knowledge and very helpful people who can give you some feedback on your four-mic setup idea.

This is correct about the Schoeps caps.  I did not get bodies, I got the active cables to a PFA (with tons of help from people here).  It made the setup for the two caps ~$2,400 instead of ~ $3,300 +/-.  Still not cheap by any means but a great, expandable setup.
Schoeps MK22 -> Nbob Actives -> Naiant PFA -> SD MixPre-6ii

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2020, 12:11:37 PM »
On mic setup, I've some general advice for running 4 mics: 
Decide if your intent is 1) comparison of the two pairs or hedging the bet by running two separate pairs and choosing the better of the two, or 2) the combination of the two pairs.   I've found it best to approach those different goals in different ways.

If comparison or hedging the bet, set up each pair individually.  Each in a stereo configuration you think will be optimal given the particular polar pattern of the mics and the recording situation you find yourself in.  Here's a good method for optimizing setup of a stereo pair in isolation: Improved PAS table  Even though that method specifically targets the Point At Stacks technique, it's actually provides an optimal solution for any situation in which the angle between the two microphones is the same as the desired recording angle, regardless of the presence of a PA or not.  It is more or less inclusive of what the common near-spaced mic setups such as DIN, NOS, ORTF, etc are intended to achieve.

If wanting to mix the two pairs to best effect, that is what the Oddball Mic Technique threads are about (this has been a particular interest of mine).  In that case it's better to move away from what works best for a stereo pair of mics on their own, considering the far more complex interaction of more than two mics being mixed together. My general advice is to use a coincident pair (X/Y or M/S) in between a pair spaced at least twice as wide as you would if using the spaced pair on its own.  A coincident pair needs microphones with a directivity of cardoid or greater (cardioid/super/hyper/fig-8).  The pair which is spaced twice as wide or more can be of whatever directivity you wish.  Using 4 cardioids can work.  If you choose to use a pair of less directive mics like subcardioids or omnis, use them in the wide-spaced pair position.

We can go into lots of specifics and details of variations to this, which are what oddball threads cover, but the bit above is the essential core of it.  The oddball threads essentially document the evolution of this approach over the past 14 years or so, in greater detail than will be of interest to the majority of tapers.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:14:40 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2020, 12:47:22 PM »
Thanks for all the encouragement and tech tips, guys.  I've definitely benefited from it all, and I've enjoyed the links you've provided.   Some of them are PACKED with info, much of which I don't understand, but I'm sure my recordings will benefit from them.

Gutbucket:  My goal for recording is to obtain the stereo feel created by the w-i-d-e spacing of mics pointed to the outside edge of the PA stacks, and I want the two mics in the center to fill up the "hole in the middle" sound (probably by placing them in XY configuration).   In summary; I want all 4 mics to be audible on the same recording.

I like the idea of using four cardioid mics for all this (probably with MBHO 440s in the center),....with the option to eventually upgrade the outside mics to some high quality subcardioids. 

I'm inclined to purchase this T-bar:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1314009-REG/on_stage_my800_quick_release_stereo_bar.html
...because I'd like to play around with this mic configuration (except the top pair of mics in XY, not ORTF):



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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2020, 01:00:13 PM »
I think you'll benefit from having more flexibility in how wide you can space the outer mics.  If you're just running open, take a look at this bar: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503258-REG/Manfrotto_154B_154_Triple_Microphone_Holder.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9_zQi_qf6gIVTvDACh1nzQJOEAQYASABEgJVgPD_BwE (you can work out a solution for the center pair, maybe by using a Shapeways XY mount or the like).
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2020, 01:22:46 PM »
I'd not seen that modular On-stage bar before.  It should work for cardioids and if going that way I'd use it in it's widest (straight horizontal) configuration for the outer pair.  The bar heathen links is a popular option around TS and is nice because it can go wider, which would be necessary for omnis, and useful for subcards that are angled forward rather than pointed directly outwards to either side.  The biggest practical constraint is how wide one can go given the constraints of the venue and your recording location in it, so you'll need to judge for yourself what you may or may not be able to use at the venues in which you'll be recording.  Its very nice to be able to "go wide" with the outside pair when you can.  Think of that pair as playing the role of spaced omnis to a significant degree, even if they are actually cardioids.

When limited in how much spacing you can achieve and using a directional outer pair, you can compensate by angling the outer pair outwards more than you otherwise would.  That works without the problems it would otherwise introduce for that pair in isolation because the center pair remains close to on-axis and "fills the center" with direct-arrival sound.  In other words, you can trade off spacing for angle to some degree with less compromise when that pair is supported and anchored by the center pair.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2020, 01:34:34 PM »
The problem with that Manfrotto 154B is that it is freakin' huge. I have been using a bar from mic-bar.com that is much less bulky and can be configured however you want. See this thread. Kind of pricey, though. followingbob said he is making another run of 24" bars soon. The Grace Spacebar is another option, but that is really expensive.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2020, 02:44:46 PM »
Thanks for the advice on the mounting bars, guys.  I had actually previously checked out that Manfrotto, and it's good to hear they're highly regarded.  So, I figure I might as well get both the Manfrotto and that On-Stage MY800,...because why the heck not?  Sometimes I'll need a tight footprint, and other times I'll be able to spread out like Al Bundy on a couch.

You guys have been great with all your recommendations/tips etc.  Thanks a lot.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2020, 03:03:58 PM »
You could also use one of these extension poles with a small clamp. With a stud in the female end, you can screw mic clips on both ends and have both a nearly 3ft wide, adjustable omni bar and a good start on a clamping setup.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5359-REG/Manfrotto_122B_122B_Adjustable_Pole_for.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/546394-REG/Manfrotto_171_171_Mini_Clamp.html

This is what I use for split omnis after selling a very heavy AEA wide stereo bar.

Mics: nbobs/480+ck61/62/63; C568EB; MKE2
Recorders: MP6; A10

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2020, 04:05:05 PM »
Manfrotto makes good stuff.  I've used their stands and adjustable poles.  I've not used the bar heathen linked, but it is well regarded by other tapers running multiple mics, because it is sturdy, stable and easy to use.  One potential issue is that as aaronji notes it is quite large, perhaps as much in appearance as in actuality.  I've not seen any one do this with it, but as a way of minimizing overall visual impact I'd be tempted to rotate the rather tall movable mic attachment "risers" forward instead of having them point upwards, assuming the bar is round in cross section and that's a viable option. Doing that would place the mics, bar and support risers more or less in the horizontal plane and greatly reduce the apparent visual size of the entire array, especially for anyone behind the recording position.

It is helpful to have a few alternative mounting options to choose from, and you are likely to home-in on which work best for you after going through the motions and feeling out what you are comfortable with at a few shows.  May take some trial and error there.

Here's another general rule of thumb setup suggestion- when using omnis or forward-facing subcardioids as the outside pair, try to arrange things so you can get 3' spacing between them.  5' is better, even 6' or more if possible. The problem is that represents a lot of spacing given what is available from most mic bars and often is simply not practical unless using more than one stand.  If you are using directional mics as the outside pair you can do the angle/spacing trade-off thing to get away with less spacing by angling them outwards, but its better if you can achieve enough spacing to not be forced into doing that.  Some setup details can help, like attaching the outside pair to the outer ends of the mic-bar such that the clips and/or shock mounts extend beyond the overall length of the bar, increasing the overall spacing.  Such an arrangement also helps minimize visual profile.

One way of achieving that spacing more easily is using a lighter-weight pair of mics for the outer pair which require less substantial support.  One way of achieving that may be simply placing the heavier pair of mics in the center, another is using arrangements which separate the the mic capsules from their amplifier bodies with a cable, so that only the capsules need be supported out there.  I use miniature DPA omnis on thin telescopic arms the diameter of a pencil which I can extend out to 6' and are nearly invisible, with larger/heavier mics in the middle where they are easily supported.

Using cardioids, I'd try to arrange things to get 2' at minimum between the outside mics, and if you can get 3' or even more all the better.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2020, 04:39:33 PM »
I've not seen any one do this with it, but as a way of minimizing overall visual impact I'd be tempted to rotate the rather tall movable mic attachment "risers" forward instead of having them point upwards, assuming the bar is round in cross section and that's a viable option.

The Manfrotto bar is round and would allow for this.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2020, 04:48:08 PM »
I've not seen any one do this with it, but as a way of minimizing overall visual impact I'd be tempted to rotate the rather tall movable mic attachment "risers" forward instead of having them point upwards, assuming the bar is round in cross section and that's a viable option.

Yes, that's possible. Each of the three supports can rotate around the circular bar and each has a screw to tighten it down. I have done this a couple of times.

Here's another general rule of thumb setup suggestion- when using omnis or forward-facing subcardioids as the outside pair, try to arrange things so you can get 3' spacing between them.  5' is better, even 6' or more if possible. The problem is that represents a lot of spacing given what is available from most mic bars and often is simply not practical unless using more than one stand.  If you are using directional mics as the outside pair you can do the angle/spacing trade-off thing to get away with less spacing by angling them outwards, but its better if you can achieve enough spacing to not be forced into doing that.  Some setup details can help, like attaching the outside pair to the outer ends of the mic-bar such that the clips and/or shock mounts extend beyond the overall length of the bar, increasing the overall spacing.  Such an arrangement also helps minimize visual profile.

One way of achieving that spacing more easily is using a lighter-weight pair of mics for the outer pair which require less substantial support.  One way of achieving that may be simply placing the heavier pair of mics in the center, another is using arrangements which separate the the mic capsules from their amplifier bodies with a cable, so that only the capsules need be supported out there.  I use miniature DPA omnis on thin telescopic arms the diameter of a pencil which I can extend out to 6' and are nearly invisible, with larger/heavier mics in the middle where they are easily supported.

Using cardioids, I'd try to arrange things to get 2' at minimum between the outside mics, and if you can get 3' or even more all the better.

Another way to get really wide spacing, when it is an option, is to use multiple clamps. I have used a pair of SuperClamps to spread omnis many times, but, of course, it requires the right rail/stage-lip to pull it off.

I have also been tempted to buy Robert's "gross AB", which gets to about 4 feet, multiple times, but haven't pulled the trigger as of yet.

[EDIT TO ADD:] The other cool thing about that "gross AB" set is that it is completely modular; it consists of two 57 cm bars, that can be used separately, connected by an ORTF mount...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 04:52:29 PM by aaronji »

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2020, 06:18:46 PM »
^Does look like a quite nice, well-designed bar.

Rocksuitcase and Kindms commonly use the method mentioned of clamping individual mics to a rail across the back of the venue at the Egg in Albany, NY to setup these kind of multiple mic arrays without using a stand or mic-bar, and it seems to work out quite nicely there.  Good option when you can do it, but obviously specific to the venue.
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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 06:54:58 PM »
Soooo, I've been listening to a ton of recordings for my new rig.  I'm contemplating the Telefunken ELA M 260 cardioids as my center pair of mics.  They're $2,500 per pair:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ELAM260CST--telefunken-ela-m-260-cardioid-small-diaphragm-tube-condenser-microphone-stereo-set

Every recording I've listened to made with these mics is buttery smooth and beautiful to my ears.   If this sounds crazy, let me know ($2,500 is a lot of money).

For the "outside" far left & far right mics, I plan on using my existing AKG C1000s (until I can upgrade to something nicer).

So, the entire rig is looking like this:
A pair of Telefunken ELA M 260 cardioids in XY centered between a pair of AKG C1000s which are spread wide, pointed just to the outside of each stack,...running directly into a Sound Devices MixPre 6.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 08:00:47 PM »
If you like the sound that's all that matters. Those are certainly quality mics.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

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x2

On the arrangement, my suggestion is to invert things angle-wise with respect to the two pairs.  Center X/Y pair Pointed At Stacks, wide pair +/-45 degrees minimum, which is likely to point that pair wider than just-outside-of-stacks.
^
I find this arrangement works well indoors, and outdoors when you can only achieve a wide spacing of about 2' or so.  If you can space more, you can get away with angling the wide pair less if you like although there are good reasons not to do so in most cases.  In this way the coincident center pair becomes primarily focused on clear pickup of direct-arriving sound from the PA and stage, providing clarity and precise imaging but a somewhat limited spaciousness and width.  The wider spaced and angled pair then balances what would otherwise be a rather narrow X/Y angle for a coincident pair used on its own, contributing increased difference information with less direct center weight where the X/Y pair steps in and does its thing.

This leverages the advantages of using 4 mics by differentiating the primary role each pair plays in the combined whole without too much conflict with the other, making for a "team effort" of all 4 mics working together rather than individual superstar pairs setup such that each attempts to achieve the best balance of everything on it's own.  Direct clarity and imaging from the center coincident pair, and spaciousness width and environment from the wide pair - at least to a somewhat increased extent, it can never be completely differentiated.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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