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Author Topic: MK21 vs MK22?  (Read 1705 times)

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Offline rigpimp

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2020, 12:32:14 PM »
I'm simply posting here to track all of the Schoeps Genius comments on two caps I know very little about. 

When I first saw the polar pattern chart at the top it occurred to me that the mk21 might be better at rejecting wind noise due to its shape being more like a pure omni.  Does anyone have experience running these outdoors in windier environs? 

I already own pairs of CCM4, MK8, and MK5 so I feel that I could probably get close to recreating the sound of a 21 or 22 in post-production with an M/S pair.  I guess I am trying to justify why I need the 21 or 22.

Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC 2105 > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider
https://archive.org/details/thespps

Offline wforwumbo

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2020, 01:55:12 PM »
I'm simply posting here to track all of the Schoeps Genius comments on two caps I know very little about. 

When I first saw the polar pattern chart at the top it occurred to me that the mk21 might be better at rejecting wind noise due to its shape being more like a pure omni.  Does anyone have experience running these outdoors in windier environs? 

I already own pairs of CCM4, MK8, and MK5 so I feel that I could probably get close to recreating the sound of a 21 or 22 in post-production with an M/S pair.  I guess I am trying to justify why I need the 21 or 22.

I ran them next to you in NOS at Gorge ‘18 nights 1 + first half of night 2. I have also run them at Dick’s.

They are not impervious to wind noise, but they are *significantly* more resilient than the 4.

Edit: given were both Bay Area tapers, next time shows are allowed you’re welcome to take a patch off me, or you’re welcome to borrow my 21s. Better yet, if I get a pair of 22s between now and then we can run em head to head.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 01:57:13 PM by wforwumbo »
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, Bay Area resident

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2x Schoeps mk21
2x Schoeps mk4
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2x Schoeps cmc5
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2020, 07:21:26 PM »
if you guys ever do get together for your open card/subcard showdown, it would be cool to throw some 4015s in the mix. the pattern has characteristics of both MK21 and MK22. probably closer to MK22



also provides a bit of HF lift that some people like. MK22 is relatively flat. MK21 has a 2dB bump from 10-20kHz. the DPA is a lil more pronounced



« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 07:46:17 PM by jerryfreak »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2020, 07:25:00 PM »
does anybody know what this chart means? its from Schoeps MK22 page

People whose posts I wont see:
 capnhook, daspyknows, Melanie, morst, Rob D., Scooter123, Sloan Simpson, Walstib62, Dr. Bickart

Offline noahbickart

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2020, 07:25:25 PM »
I’ve run my 21s next to Noah’s 22s a handful of times...  It isn’t a 1-1 mapping, but on 12/31/18 Noah and I both ran out mics on the same stand 15’ up in the air. I believe Noah ran his mk22 pair at 50ish cm PAS, and I ran my 21s in 35 cm/65 degrees. We both used Mixpre-6’s, Nbob KCYs, and Naiant PFAs (though Noah’s run 60V and mine 48V). This should give you a better idea of their similarities and differences.

Here's my tape from that night:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16PK63wwpO-mTHbLxqgBo2UmDgwXv3JSm?usp=sharing
Phish
Madison Square Garden
December 31, 2018


This is a great tape. Nothing else to add except that these are dream mics.

Thanks for the kind words, enjoy!!

Here's the rest of that run with the mk22:
12/30: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JF7goqh_QZwVSKTP6-ThgPyZgZv-xBky?usp=sharing
12/29: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17_cz9WbtVgwsFBx2z9HZjfAa4vnpFTnr?usp=sharing
12/28: [was Shabbat, sorry]

Compare to the mk41v:
12/31: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jZd86lFVE3dMPHGOjfG1MvaDb5yr3xqk?usp=sharing
12/30: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YLJ0BD3WgtzpOXY_SZo2rUHCJCTTigs0?usp=sharing
12/29: [some sort of user error, Sorry]
12/28: [was Shabbat, sorry]

and the mk3 Omnis:
12/31: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1IEVjICMlWZbB4XQmopLWaXzHgQT6Ws64?usp=sharing
12/30: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u9KIe-ktGn7kkeqe8ueI6_9m7KkEXr4p?usp=sharing
12/29: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1F8VuUyt-ycOUjgK9QgQaYe9fVdazVC0B?usp=sharing
12/28: [was Shabbat, sorry]
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 10:21:00 PM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Online aaronji

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2020, 07:48:53 PM »
Stereophonic Zoom.
People whose posts I won't see: jerryfreak. The probationary period didn't last long...

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2020, 09:12:36 AM »
does anybody know what this chart means? its from Schoeps MK22 page


Stereophonic Zoom.

It is a plot showing expected stereo imaging based on intensity / time-of-arrival tradoffs of various angle/spacing relationships between a stereo pair.

It is useful for estimating the effective inclusive stereo imaging angle upon playback over a standard 60° speaker setup, given various combinations of spacing (X axis) and angle (Y axis) between a stereo pair of microphones with the polar characteristics of the MK22, derived from data extrapolated from a series of listening tests. 

The curved lines with angles in bubbles indicate the "angle of acceptance" (deemed "Orchestra Angle" in Williams' Stereo Zoom parlance),  inside of which individual sound sources of interest can be expected to be heard upon playback to be spatially arrayed between the speakers, whereas sources outside that angle are reproduced so as to appear to be spatially compressed around one speaker or the other.  The shaded areas indicate regions of increased spatial distortion in the playback image.

[edit- Noah's recording notes indicate that he positioned the MK22 pair 45cm and 65° apart for that recording.  According to the chart, that should result in an stereo pickup angle (Orchestra Angle) of around +/- 30° or about 60° total when reproduced over a 60° playback speaker arrangement]
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 03:44:40 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2020, 10:23:48 AM »
Can anyone comment on the qualitative and quantitative differences between MK21 and MK22 with regards to far off-axis sources? Essentially across the "rear hemisphere" of the pattern, specifically across the region between 120° through 240° or so?   I'm interested in the difference in subjective sound quality as well as the difference in sensitivity between the front and back averaged across that relatively wide angle, rather than as measured specifically at 180°.

Although this question is relatively straight forward, my reason for asking is in regards to a rather atypical application.  I've long thought about using these types of patterns in place of omnis in the wide A-B portion of my arrays, which serve a dual roll of low frequency pickup and ambient/audience/reverberant capture.  For the purpose of low frequency pickup the omnis are unsurpassed.  Yet for the purpose of ambient/audience/room capture there is too much pickup of direct arriving sound from the front to allow for the most optimal balance with the other microphones dedicated to frontal direct-arrival pickup and imaging.  This places the two roles at odds.  A rear-facing wide A-B pair of cardioids sufficiently limits sensitivity to direct arrival from the front, yet lacks the low bass response (and sufficient ambient openness). And used in this way, a cardioid may adversely color pickup of the dominant front-arriving sound if its response across it's region of minimal sensitivity is not especially well behaved.  Fortunately in general, with greater sensitivity to the rear comes increased smoothness across that region (more open patterns being generally better behaved across their least sensitive quadrant).

Its my speculation that a rear-facing A-B pair of subcardioids or open cardioids in place of omnis could sufficiently reduce sensitivity to the front while retaining sufficient low frequency sensitivity and openness.  I'd love to experiment with a pair of A-B fig-8's coincident with the omnis to really get a handle on dialing in the front/back sensitivity balance afterward, but based on my experience I expect a subcardioid or open-cardioid type pattern would be just about right.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rigpimp

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2020, 02:04:29 PM »
I'm simply posting here to track all of the Schoeps Genius comments on two caps I know very little about. 

When I first saw the polar pattern chart at the top it occurred to me that the mk21 might be better at rejecting wind noise due to its shape being more like a pure omni.  Does anyone have experience running these outdoors in windier environs? 

I already own pairs of CCM4, MK8, and MK5 so I feel that I could probably get close to recreating the sound of a 21 or 22 in post-production with an M/S pair.  I guess I am trying to justify why I need the 21 or 22.

I ran them next to you in NOS at Gorge ‘18 nights 1 + first half of night 2. I have also run them at Dick’s.

They are not impervious to wind noise, but they are *significantly* more resilient than the 4.

Edit: given were both Bay Area tapers, next time shows are allowed you’re welcome to take a patch off me, or you’re welcome to borrow my 21s. Better yet, if I get a pair of 22s between now and then we can run em head to head.

I remember you ran one of them but was unsure which.  Can you pm me a link to your pull from night 1?  I'd like to A:B it with my pull.  I just listened to parts of my CCM4 pull and the MS pull so I have a good idea of where the windy spots are.
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC 2105 > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider
https://archive.org/details/thespps

Offline noahbickart

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2020, 02:16:59 PM »
[edit- Noah's recording notes indicate that he positioned the MK22 pair 45cm and 65° apart for that recording.  According to the chart, that should result in an stereo pickup angle (Orchestra Angle) of a bit less than +/- 30° or 60° total when reproduced over a 60° playback speaker arrangement]

And it's all your fault.

I had a special bar made to allow for wider spacings and narrower angles and infinite adjustment of each for your PAS theory......
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2020, 03:43:17 PM »
^ And my thanks to you for putting the technique to such good use.  Your recordings are THE proof of it working as well as I originally expected and hoped.

To explain to others, we are talking about the Improved Point At Stacks technique as described in this thread- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409 (which is also linked in my signature line as Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<<).  It takes the audience-taper-specific PAS microphone technique and applies to it the intensity/time-of-arrival trade-offs described above, in order to determine the most optimal spacing to use between the microphones.  In that way it solves for the special situation where it is desirable for the Orchestra Angle to be the same as the angle between the microphones, whereas generally those two angles are not the same.  It makes determining the optimal spacing between microphones easy via a single lookup table, given the PAS angle and the pickup pattern of the microphones.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 03:47:14 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online MakersMarc

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2020, 03:46:00 PM »
Anyone run mk21/22 in a hat or by other lopro mounting? Ok to PM probably should.
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2020, 12:42:29 AM »
Anyone run mk21/22 in a hat or by other lopro mounting? Ok to PM probably should.

PM sent

also here's a good mk22 source (Phish 6/28/16 Mann from DFC Balcony): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1XAdOA9jVlqK1zygWw_sOd9i5LYVHyGmz?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 12:46:06 AM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

 

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