Topic: Tascam FR-AV2 new compact 32bit float recorder.

[caymanreview]

fwiw, i was finally able to find the line of Kioxia approved cards on amazon japan with free international shipping right now

[Kyle K]

What cards are everyone running? From the approved list?

I'm using

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09X7CRKRZ?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1&th=1
SanDisk 256GB Extreme microSDXC UHS-I Memory Card with Adapter - Up to 190MB/s, C10, U3, V30, 4K, 5K, A2, Micro SD Card - SDSQXAV-256G-GN6MA

No issues thusfar

[adrianb]

I’ve been using my Tascam FR-AV2 as a portable recorder with pluggy mics directly into the XLR inputs.

Unfortunately Tascam has Inputs 1 (Left) and 2 (Right) positioned differently to Zoom, and screen up the mic pointing right is the left channel, and the mic pointing left is the right channel. I don’t really want to be fixing later so have been placing the recorder face down, which is not ideal. I’ve read the manual to determine if there is a way to switch channels but can’t see anything. I would be grateful if someone can tell me if I’m missing something obvious.

I notice that Immersive Soundscapes have a new product that is very interesting. I have some MKH8040 mics and this could be the ultimate portable recorder. It’s just the channels the wrong way round that’s a bit annoying.

[aaronji]

Can't you just rotate it 180º?

[adrianb]

Can't you just rotate it 180º?

Yes, that’s putting the recorder face down on the surface.

[capnhook]

Can't you just rotate it 180º?

Yes, that’s putting the recorder face down on the surface.

Well, then flip it 180º the other way..

[aaronji]

Gotcha. I kind of misinterpreted your previous post, as I was looking at the orientation in the photo. Obviously, though, you would be using it horizontally and not vertically...

[adrianb]

Gotcha. I kind of misinterpreted your previous post, as I was looking at the orientation in the photo. Obviously, though, you would be using it horizontally and not vertically...

Gotcha too. I didn’t know if I was being dumb.

Actually vertical orientation does make sense as upwards facing inputs gives a lot more options with the adapters available. I’ve considered it, with some sort of stand attached, but it would be a lot less stealth like and I like to make recordings unnoticed.

[datbrad]

I've been testing the FR-AV2 with a few different mics having sensitivity ranges from 8 mv/pa to 1.2 mv/pa to determine level setting characteristics and the +4 db max input value stated by Tascam.

I tested in an outdoor concert environment and the source was a Martin Audio Wavefront line array pushing sound pressures at the mic position averaging 80db with peaks in the low 90db range.

Here are my findings:

With the most sensitive condenser mics I own (8 mv/pa) the max input gain setting to get good levels without exceeding 24bit full scale was +8 to +10 db.

With the least sensitve mic I own (dynamic) the gain setting on the Tascam averaged 28-30db.

In summary, mics with a sensitivity spec at 10 mv/pa will only allow 5-6 db gain setting on the recorder. Very sensitive mics at 15 mv/pa or greater will require the gain on the Tascam to be set to minimum.

The sweet spot mic sensitivity for concert taping with the FR-AV2 seems to be in the 2.5 to 3.5 mv/pa range. You can use even less sensitive mics  (1-2 mv/pa) but I would stay away from mics with higher sensitivity specs above 10-15 mv/pa.

Hope this info is helpful in selecting the right microphones to use with the FR-AV2 for concert taping.

[TheJez]

I've been testing the FR-AV2 with a few different mics having sensitivity ranges from 8 mv/pa to 1.2 mv/pa to determine level setting characteristics and the +4 db max input value stated by Tascam.
<snip>
Hope this info is helpful in selecting the right microphones to use with the FR-AV2 for concert taping.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but... I think it was determined before that the FR-AV2 actually has a fixed analog gain (regardless of the 24/32bfp recording format), and the gain setting done by the user is applied in the digital domain (after the ADC).
If you definitely want to record straight to 24-bit for whatever reason, then for sure you want to make sure you won't set this digital gain so high that the output won't fit into the 24-bit dynamic range. In that situation your test is relevant.
However, running the risk of going beyond the 24-bit dynamic range can be mitigated completely by simply recording to 32-bit float. It will not improve or reduce the sound quality (*1), it will simply prevent overloading your output format regardless of your (digital) gain setting. During post-processing you can normalize and export to 24-bit. So why run the risk of format-overloading in the first place?

I guess it would be more interesting to find out at what sound pressure the analog stage overloads for different sensitivity mics... (User manual: "If an overload occurs with an analog circuit, the entire level meter will become red.") I'd like to believe that setting the digital gain to 0dB would give a nice impression of that (meaning 0dB on the VU level meters is on the edge of overloading the analog stage), but I haven't been able yet to test if this is actually true or not due to lack of loud enough sounds...

1) This is a bit debatable, but that's a different discussion. I think we can say though that storing in 32bfp could only make things better (especially for quiet parts in your recordings) and certainly not worse.

[datbrad]

I've been testing the FR-AV2 with a few different mics having sensitivity ranges from 8 mv/pa to 1.2 mv/pa to determine level setting characteristics and the +4 db max input value stated by Tascam.
<snip>
Hope this info is helpful in selecting the right microphones to use with the FR-AV2 for concert taping.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but... I think it was determined before that the FR-AV2 actually has a fixed analog gain (regardless of the 24/32bfp recording format), and the gain setting done by the user is applied in the digital domain (after the ADC).
If you definitely want to record straight to 24-bit for whatever reason, then for sure you want to make sure you won't set this digital gain so high that the output won't fit into the 24-bit dynamic range. In that situation your test is relevant.
However, running the risk of going beyond the 24-bit dynamic range can be mitigated completely by simply recording to 32-bit float. It will not improve or reduce the sound quality (*1), it will simply prevent overloading your output format regardless of your (digital) gain setting. During post-processing you can normalize and export to 24-bit. So why run the risk of format-overloading in the first place?

I guess it would be more interesting to find out at what sound pressure the analog stage overloads for different sensitivity mics... (User manual: "If an overload occurs with an analog circuit, the entire level meter will become red.") I'd like to believe that setting the digital gain to 0dB would give a nice impression of that (meaning 0dB on the VU level meters is on the edge of overloading the analog stage), but I haven't been able yet to test if this is actually true or not due to lack of loud enough sounds...

1) This is a bit debatable, but that's a different discussion. I think we can say though that storing in 32bfp could only make things better (especially for quiet parts in your recordings) and certainly not worse.

I'm not sure where I claimed the preamp gain control was analog, because it's not, and it's fixed. The input level max of +4 would be difficult to reach, even for sensitive microphones. A Schoeps CMC6/MK4 combo would need 130db of sound pressure to generate enough voltage to hit that max, but that's not the point. Because that mic's sensitivity is 15 mv/pa, in a concert setting you would have to reduce gain to minimum and you are correct that 32bit float will handle signals that would otherwise clip in 24bit, but I didn't want a brick that I can't control levels, specificallly because I can't stand uneven channels between left and right.

I should have started out by explaining that I don't give a rip about 32bit float for recording a concert PA where the dynamic range of the music is no more than 60db. I ran 32bit float once and I hated the workflow so much that I doubt I'll ever use it.

I've spent the last 32 years managing digital recorders at shows where the top of the scale for levels is zero from the DAT days until now. I'm sure young tapers who haven't had such a long period of muscle memory development are baffled by the position that going over zero is never ok.

I am hard wired that the measure of sucess recording shows is how little post work is required, which I know is very old thinking but I won't be changing that now. I am too old.

My tests were to find the sensitivity value that will allow me to use and adjust gain to avoid post work. Thanks

(Edit to add "preamp" to sentence about analog gain)

[AB52]

This looks interesting!
https://reverb.com/item/85619654-earsight-the-one-for-tascam-fr-av2-stereo-field-recording-microphone

[TheJez]

I've been testing the FR-AV2 with a few different mics having sensitivity ranges from 8 mv/pa to 1.2 mv/pa to determine level setting characteristics and the +4 db max input value stated by Tascam.
<snip>
Hope this info is helpful in selecting the right microphones to use with the FR-AV2 for concert taping.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but... I think it was determined before that the FR-AV2 actually has a fixed analog gain (regardless of the 24/32bfp recording format), and the gain setting done by the user is applied in the digital domain (after the ADC).
If you definitely want to record straight to 24-bit for whatever reason, then for sure you want to make sure you won't set this digital gain so high that the output won't fit into the 24-bit dynamic range. In that situation your test is relevant.
However, running the risk of going beyond the 24-bit dynamic range can be mitigated completely by simply recording to 32-bit float. It will not improve or reduce the sound quality (*1), it will simply prevent overloading your output format regardless of your (digital) gain setting. During post-processing you can normalize and export to 24-bit. So why run the risk of format-overloading in the first place?

I guess it would be more interesting to find out at what sound pressure the analog stage overloads for different sensitivity mics... (User manual: "If an overload occurs with an analog circuit, the entire level meter will become red.") I'd like to believe that setting the digital gain to 0dB would give a nice impression of that (meaning 0dB on the VU level meters is on the edge of overloading the analog stage), but I haven't been able yet to test if this is actually true or not due to lack of loud enough sounds...

1) This is a bit debatable, but that's a different discussion. I think we can say though that storing in 32bfp could only make things better (especially for quiet parts in your recordings) and certainly not worse.

I'm not sure where I claimed the gain was analog, because it's not. The input level max of +4 would be difficult to reach, even for sensitive microphones. A Schoeps CMC6/MK4 combo would need 130db of sound pressure to generate enough voltage to hit that max, but that's not the point. Because that mic's sensitivity is 15 mv/pa, in a concert setting you would have to reduce gain to minimum and you are correct that 32bit float will handle signals that would otherwise clip in 24bit, but I didn't want a brick that I can't control levels, specificallly because I can't stand uneven channels between left and right.

I should have started out by explaining that I don't give a rip about 32bit float for recording a concert PA where the dynamic range of the music is no more than 60db. I ran 32bit float once and I hated the workflow so much that I doubt I'll ever use it.

I've spent the last 32 years managing digital recorders at shows where the top of the scale for levels is zero from the DAT days until now. I'm sure young tapers who haven't had such a long period of muscle memory development are baffled by the position that going over zero is never ok.

I am hard wired that the measure of sucess recording shows is how little post work is required, which I know is very old thinking but I won't be changing that now. I am too old.

My tests were to find the sensitivity value that will allow me to use and adjust gain to avoid post work. Thanks

I didn't mean to step on any toes, sorry if I did. All respect for the tests you did and sharing the results.
IMHO there are few reasons why one would opt for 24bit storage if you'd have a (proper multi-ADC) 32bfp recorder in your hand, and 'hating the 32bit float workflow' sure sounds like a valid one  . It does make me curious what it is that you hate so much about the 32bit workflow. Personally I don't experience much difference from the 24bit workflow at all as I've almost always been normalizing anyway since I replaced my WMD-6C with a portable DAT 32 years ago. I just love the thought that I don't have to worry at all about clipping or underwhelming during recording and editing. I don't mind the 33% extra storage space and transfer times for this benefit. To me, recording in 24bit on a 32bfp recorder feels a bit like switching off the airbags in the car because one's trying to avoid collisions anyway. To each their own, obviously!

[Ozpeter]

This looks interesting!
https://reverb.com/item/85619654-earsight-the-one-for-tascam-fr-av2-stereo-field-recording-microphone

That's neat, but the cost is a bit scary - current price of the Zoom M4 is about the same, recorder included.  And in the context of Taperssection, the M4 handles 135db SPL, 15dB more than this mic.  But I guess a side by side comparison would be required to really tell the difference and - that ain't going to happen.

[datbrad]

Digital clipping has never been a pain point for me. I guess setting levels is something I've gotten down fairly well after some unknown number in the hundreds of shows I have taped. I should be a huge 32bit float guy because I like to run hot which I guess is a leftover habit from the analog cassette days when saturation was the key to minimizing tape noise. If a recording has a dozen clipped sectors, the only way I can tell is when I see it on a DAW. I sure can't hear it, and I don't know anyone else who has either.
About the 32 bit workflow. I should have said I don't like the required workflow of that format. Right in the venue parking lot I can take a 24/48 raw master file, copy it over to a usb c thumbdrive, and plug that into the usb slot on the head unit of my car stereo and have it playing in 5 minutes.

Sorry, but I think the airbag analogy is ridiculous. A better analogy is the Canon A-1 SLR camera that was introduced in 1978. That was the first professional 35mm camera to feature a fully automatic exposure system. There were already cameras with either aperture priority or shutter priority, but the A-1 was the milestone that evolved to the "anybody can take a good photo" goal of all photography equipment after that. Of course, composition and balance and artistic  qualities still had to come from the skill of the photographer, so when the masses could run out and get a fully auto slr by the early 1980s, suddenly there were a million amateur photographers still taking shitty photos, but now they were not over or under exposed. Even after Nikon, Minolta, and Pentax jumped on the automatic camera bandwagon, their top line professional cameras could still be switched to full manual with a good old center weighted match needle light meter.
 
Why would they make cameras with fully manual controls if automatic cameras could that work better. Well, it's that the "better" part only applied to amature weekend snapshot types, pros knew how to select shutter speeds and apertures using a hand held light meter and their industry was not screaming "help we need an automatic camera to make all the settings for us". The only reason automatic exposure systems were found in the top end cameras afterwards was purely for the purpose of selling them to pro wannabes who had no clue how that stuff worked. Same thing happened a decade later with auto focus. No pro ever said "I wish I didn't have to focus manually". 32bit float is a cool feature, but it's not to someone who rarely if ever needed to have, IMO of course.