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Author Topic: Is system noise a thing of the past, which can usually just be ignored?  (Read 657 times)

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Offline Ozpeter

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Today, almost on an impulse when I found myself on a very still day in the deserted and quietest countryside park I know, I recorded about 5 minutes of birdsong using my humble Zoom H2essenial.  This isn't about that recorder so much as about any reasonable modern portable recorder these days - that's just the one I had in my bag.

The birdsong was actually more or less inaudible to my bare ears while the recording progressed.  I was a bit annoyed the birds were being unhelpful.  But when I used Audition to first play the recording unchanged, and then normalised (+30dB), I was staggered to hear that birds were actually singing all the time, and I could even hear the decay of the reverberation of their calls once the gain was raised that much.  Yes, I could hear a fair bit of background noise instead of the previous near-silence, but it sounded to me like environmental noise rather than system noise.  It sounded "out there" rather than "in there".

This was a good test showing how raising digital gain when recording in 32 bit float these days is pointless - all possible detail was actually in there on the almost flat waveform -  but also that it's hard to imagine the circumstances where system noise would actually be a real world problem.  Certainly not in the tapers section at a rock concert. This noisy world's environments are the problem, not the recorders!

I put my experiment together in a YouTube video on my unmonetised channel.  If anyone cares to check it out and tell me that I'm totally wrong, here's the link.

https://youtu.be/eHCQG3hBYrY

Offline VibrationOfLife

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Noise floor is definitely a real thing.  Don't discount it.

Offline grawk

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That you heard noise with only 30db of gain says noise is still an issue. To know if it’s from the recorder or environment, using an analog preamp in front of the recorder and see if it gets louder. Recording silence in the quietest area you can find with varying levels of gain from -10 to 60db would be an interesting test.
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Offline Thelonious

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I recorded an acoustic show from the back of Het Concergebouw last November with mk22>riotbox (no gain added)>F3 and there was system noise in the recording. Now the show was VERY quiet (someone shuffling in their chair a few seats away was much louder than the quiet parts of the music) but I was actually surprised and wished I had brought my SD MixPre 6ii with me as my sense is the preamps are quieter on that. I could have also added gain at the riotbox but I'm unsure if that would have risked the audience noise, which was orders of magnitude louder than the quiet parts of the music, would have overloaded the mic pres if I did so...

I raise this extreme example because I've never thought of the F3 preamps as adding noise but, in this extremely quiet recording situation, it was there and I believe it was from the mic pres as opposed to the mics or the HVAC etc.

So I do think it's still an issue but I would suspect it's far less of an issue than it would have been 10 years ago...
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:08:44 AM by Thelonious »

Offline Gutbucket

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Determining which noise source defines the audible noise-floor of a recording can be challenging.  Grawk's proposed test is a good one for discerning the increased noise floor of recorder vs preamp at various settings, but may not help much in determining what defines the lowest noise floor when using more optimal settings.  Is it the environment, microphone self-noise, preamp, recorder's analog input stage?

Of course system noise matters, but we can manage it pretty well with proper attention.  There is no question that the dynamic range of inexpensive gear has improved significantly over the years. That's good. Yet I wonder if loss of awareness about the fundamentals of good gain structure may end up being an unfortunate byproduct of the widespread adoption of 32-bit float recording.

Years ago I put a good amount of effort into optimizing the gain structure of my 24-bit stealth rig to achieve the maximum possible dynamic range. I never measured, but I think I got it to around 100dB or so which is reflects the dynamic range capability of the mics.. and probably the real-world dynamic range of the 24bit recorder I was using as well. That process started with choosing the appropriate mic sensitivity, then determining the optimal input setting on the recorder, then carefully tweaking the fine gain trim of the preamp such that I could choose between three gross gain settings when recording any music performance.  I mostly used just two.  The most sensitive setting was appropriate for the most demanding recording environments in terms of noise-floor and overall dynamic range, and was determined by my desire to keep the impulse peaks of the loudest applause from a potentially over exuberant person sitting immediately adjacent just below clipping.  That was the practical constraint, and at that point it was still not a simple task to determine if either microphone self-noise or HVAC defined the noise-floor of the recording.  I later determined that the noise-floor was indeed dominated by the ambient noise-floor of the performance space, which included a couple modern purpose built, highly acoustically isolated classical music halls which are the quietest places I've recorded music with an audience present. 

I used the second, lower gross gain setting for most PA amplified material, where the peak SPL of the music regularly exceeds that of adjacent applause impulse peaks - the specific setting determined somewhat more arbitrarily via experience.  In the third lowest gain position, the highest SPL the recording chain was able handle was determined by the SPL limitations of the microphones.  That one useful for especially loud material, but one I rarely used. 

Three gain settings- highest determined by the max SPL of the environment (with the noise-floor falling where it may upon optimal gain staging, fortunately also determined by the environment), the lowest being determined by the SPL limits of the microphones (the noise floor in those decidedly non-quiet situations pretty much always being ambient audience noise), and one somewhere in between that suited most amplified music situations.  It required an external preamp to do that.

With a goal of eliminating the external preamp among other things, I'm still trying to rebuild an equivalent performing rig using newer recorders, yet can't quite do so yet while achieving the same specs.  Passing off all gain-staging to the manufacturer of the recorder would be convenient, but is not quite there yet for me.
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Offline capnhook

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Don't know if you gents can use an improvement in your workflow, but here's what works for me...

Sample the system noise in RX (you DID a nice long pre-roll and recorded the room and your setup at idle, eh?)

Subtract the noise you found, first thing before mixing

Noise is gone, a thing of the past..
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Offline beroti_music

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I recorded an acoustic show from the back of Het Concergebouw last November with mk22>riotbox (no gain added)>F3 and there was system noise in the recording. Now the show was VERY quiet (someone shuffling in their chair a few seats away was much louder than the quiet parts of the music) but I was actually surprised and wished I had brought my SD MixPre 6ii with me as my sense is the preamps are quieter on that. I could have also added gain at the riotbox but I'm unsure if that would have risked the audience noise, which was orders of magnitude louder than the quiet parts of the music, would have overloaded the mic pres if I did so...

I raise this extreme example because I've never thought of the F3 preamps as adding noise but, in this extremely quiet recording situation, it was there and I believe it was from the mic pres as opposed to the mics or the HVAC etc.

So I do think it's still an issue but I would suspect it's far less of an issue than it would have been 10 years ago...

Off topic, sorry for that but since I have mk22's too; why did you use them at the back of venue? Isn't it better to use mk4 or mk41 in that spot? I use mk22 for when I'm close or in open air. Curious to hear about your motivation!
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Offline grawk

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I’m not who you asked but I use wide cards whenever the sound where I’m setting up is closer to ideal. In the right room with the right engineer that can be farther back. 
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Offline aaronji

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It was in the small room at the Concertgebouw. It was pretty intimate, maybe 400 people.
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Offline Thelonious

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I recorded an acoustic show from the back of Het Concergebouw last November with mk22>riotbox (no gain added)>F3 and there was system noise in the recording. Now the show was VERY quiet (someone shuffling in their chair a few seats away was much louder than the quiet parts of the music) but I was actually surprised and wished I had brought my SD MixPre 6ii with me as my sense is the preamps are quieter on that. I could have also added gain at the riotbox but I'm unsure if that would have risked the audience noise, which was orders of magnitude louder than the quiet parts of the music, would have overloaded the mic pres if I did so...

I raise this extreme example because I've never thought of the F3 preamps as adding noise but, in this extremely quiet recording situation, it was there and I believe it was from the mic pres as opposed to the mics or the HVAC etc.

So I do think it's still an issue but I would suspect it's far less of an issue than it would have been 10 years ago...

Off topic, sorry for that but since I have mk22's too; why did you use them at the back of venue? Isn't it better to use mk4 or mk41 in that spot? I use mk22 for when I'm close or in open air. Curious to hear about your motivation!

I have the MK22s and the MK41s. In general, I prefer the mk22 for bass response and overall image depth in a good sounding room. The room in question was the chamber room at Het Concergebouw in Amseterdam. Part of what I wanted to capture is how the room sounds, which was really great and it lends a sense of grandeur that I think was part of the performance. I did not know where I would get to set up in advance, nor had I anticipated the sound level of the music to be so low relative to the audience even though I have recorded the same band at SF jazz in what is an opposite style of room (SF Jazz almost like a studio, the Het Concergebouw designed to carry sound of unamplified instruments to the back of the room). I like the sound of the recording, and while a hyper cap may have sounded "cleaner" (less room) it wasn't what I was after. The noise issue, which I hadn't anticipated as I have never recorded something that quiet with that rig before, would have remained. The reverberance in this room gives the recording a unique sense of space.

I did ultimately use noise reduction in RX. The challenge is that in this room, you can hear literally any movement in the room making getting a really clean moment almost impossible (much to my surprise and disappointment). The result was not bad but did not allow me to cleanly reduce the noise to being a non issue, but did increase the level I can listen to the recording significantly (and likely above the volume at the mics location in the room).

Offline Billy Mumphrey

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I mean, how long until we're all using mics with DIGITAL amplifiers (ie Schoeps CMD 42)? Isn't this the current standard for lowest noise floor? I'll try to dig up DSatz's post explaining why CMD 42 amplifier is so quiet....
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Offline beroti_music

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Thanks for the replies on the wide cards and mk22s!

I like the bass response of the mk22 as well.
Its a beautiful sounding cap. But since I do stealth video often as well, I often find myself at the back of the venue, hence the question :)
mics schoeps mk22/mk4 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 (JB mod/cp3) | primo em4052pmi4's (JB mod) | sp-cmc-4u/at-u853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc)
power schoeps cmbi (pair) | ca-9200 | ca-ubb (2x)  
recorder roland r-05 (5x)  
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
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Offline Thelonious

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Thanks for the replies on the wide cards and mk22s!

I like the bass response of the mk22 as well.
Its a beautiful sounding cap. But since I do stealth video often as well, I often find myself at the back of the venue, hence the question :)

Yes, this was a smaller venue, with incredible acoustics, so it wasn't like being at the back of an arena or something like that where the reverberant sound would strongly detract from the quality. Off topic, I have started doing some video here and there so expect a PM shortly so I can pick your brain.  8)

Offline grawk

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I mean, how long until we're all using mics with DIGITAL amplifiers (ie Schoeps CMD 42)? Isn't this the current standard for lowest noise floor? I'll try to dig up DSatz's post explaining why CMD 42 amplifier is so quiet....

Once they put that in something the size of a cmc1
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Offline Gutbucket

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I mean, how long until we're all using mics with DIGITAL amplifiers (ie Schoeps CMD 42)? Isn't this the current standard for lowest noise floor? I'll try to dig up DSatz's post explaining why CMD 42 amplifier is so quiet....

Don't get me wrong, that's great, I just don't think a noise floor that low is particularly important for "what we do".  The mic's self-noise really only needs to be somewhat lower than the noise-floor of our quietest recording environment.  As I describe above, even in the "quietest" live performance scenarios I've encountered, the ambient noise floor of the hall with church-mouse quiet minimal audience in attendance still exceeded the self-noise of the mics.  That was using DPA 4060 with a self-noise spec of 26 dB(A) re. 20 µPa / 38 dBs ITU-R BS.468-4.  I suppose that really shouldn't have surprised me but it did. Sure, some folks here may be recording in situations quieter than that (beroti_music maybe?, Peter's nature recordings), but its going to be a rare at most of the live performances that folks at TS are recording.

Subtract the noise you found, first thing before mixing

This is the second part of the discussion - using noise reduction afterward.. regardless of the source, which we don't really even need identify.  Requires a close listen and careful touch to assure doing more good than harm, but noise-reduction algorithms have grown better over time and will continue to do so.  Kev, I've not done a whole lot of noise-reduction myself and have a practical question for you- When you're using a noise sample from the pre-roll section to train the noise reduction algorithm in RX, how much does the presence of audience noise and chatter in the sample mess with its effectiveness?  Seems the best training sample would be just steady-state room and signal-chain noise without the interference of that kind of non-steady state audience noise.  Does it work best below some threshold level of chatter?  Do you still bother if the room is already "human noisy" when the pre-roll starts?  I'm just thinking that there are plenty of times when there's minimal audience noise, but its rare to have none unless getting in early with the band.  It is considerably easier to get good noise-samples at classical gigs where folks traditionally quiet themselves just prior to the start.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:33:35 PM by Gutbucket »
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