Rank Newbie Needs Help

[Johnhardy1]

Thanks to everyone. What a great community of folks. So I've ordered the CM4's and I'm waiting to get shipping quotes from JAM.SE. I decided to order as I have a friend who says he can borrow a pair of SE7's from someone he knows so at least I have a backup if they don't arrive in time.

Now I'm on to a mic stand, stereo bar & cables. I saw someone mention to look at lighting stands but I don't really know what to look at other than I need something to at least 10 ft high, right? How wide of a stereo bar should I get?
And cables. Only thing I know is that they'll need to be long enough. 

Any recommendations you might have for all this? I'd also like to know how y'all deal with your equipment and keep drunken stumblers etc from causing damage to your stuff.

(I've also found out that I should be able to set up in a small firepit which is right-middle of the stage and about 15' back.)

[morst]

Yellow caution tape and a blinking flashlight (bike taillight?) can help alert folks not to run into your stand... If you point the flashlight towards the ground it highlights the legs/feet of the stand and is not quite so obnoxiously obtrusive to folks who are not about to walk through the space.
https://www.harborfreight.com/300-ft-caution-barricade-tape-47762.html

As for a tall stand - I have a 6 and a 10 foot stand and almost never bring the taller one. But I'm probably not typical in that I don't usually find myself at big venues for taper-friendly shows.
https://mpex.com/manfrotto-5001b-nano-light-stand-3373-001b.html

If you get a "lighting" stand, be sure you have the right threads to attach your stereo bar or other mic mounting options.
One way to gain flexibility in this regard is to have a small clamp like a Windtech or Rowi with the proper threads, and simply attach the clamp near the top of your stand.
https://www.markertek.com/product/mpc-10/windtech-mpc-10-c-clamp-multi-position-mic-mount

As for a stereo bar - it really depends on what configuration you plan to use, but the standard "atlas bar" is pretty useful to get you started. Wow I did not expect it to sell for $45, but it's a weird world nowadays!
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TM1E--atlas-sound-twin-microphone-mount-black

Another handy accessory to gain mounting flexibility and a bit more height is a short (but stiff) gooseneck section.
https://www.gear4music.com/us/en/Recording-and-Computers/Gooseneck-Mic-Stand-by-Gear4music/1LKD

You might find that a rigid setup transmits bump noises to the mics, and decide that you wish to use some sort of shock mount. These usually consist of either a mount suspended by elastic, or a manufactured plastic mount which can hold one or both of your mics and/or the stereo bar.  Personally I find that keeping intruders off the mic stand solves the problem, but if you want to be more certain, a shock mount might be a handy piece of kit to carry.

Hope my little brainstorm is helpful for you and not too much like drinking from a firehose!

One more classic tip before I hit send is to make a practice recording or a few of them - crank your home stereo and see how it goes... Check out a bar band that you don't care about... Don't have a rocking home stereo? How about a car stereo?? You can measure sound levels with a phone app like Decibel-X (iPhone or android, free on both) - if you can record sound levels over 100 dB without distortion that's a good start.

Speaking of 100 dB... get yourself some earplugs, just in case! The foam ones are ok but they might block a lot more intelligibility than you prefer, so consider spending $20 or so on some "audiophile" ones like maybe Hearos or some cheap Etymotics?

[aaronji]

The Manfrotto 1004BAC is a pretty good stand. Gets up to a decent height and is reasonably light. Mine came with an adapter on the top to allow either 3/8" or 5/8".

As for a bar, I would recommend something a little wider than usual for wide(r) cards, like the CM4s. With 4015s, I find the sweet spot to be between 30 and 35 cm, depending on the width of the stage/PA. It's not exactly cheap, but this bar has served me well. It also allows more than one pair of mics (if you get some extra screws).

[al w.]

there's some useful info in here https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=208885.0

[fanofjam]

A couple of random comments...

I don't concern myself with the hardware that's actually integrated with my stand.  I prefer using clamps that connect directly to my mic bars and then simply clamp to the pole of the stand near the top.

There are several ways to protect your gear on a stand around drunken fools. 

One is just stay with your gear and monitor it during the show.  Bring a small flashlight with you and when someone is navigating around your stuff, shine the light and give some help seeing the stand legs. If it's not very crowded, this isn't much of a concern. 

Second, I would buy some heavy-duty windscreens with fur on them.  Use them 100% of the time, even when you're indoor at a windless venue.  The foam and the fur help to give your mics protection on the rare occasion that your stand gets toppled over.  (Unfortunately, it happens)

Finally, for an outdoor show or festival, grab some stakes from the Wal-Mart camping section.  They're a buck or two each.  Use one or two of the cross-supports on the base of your stand to stake your stand down.  I always have duct tape with me, so for indoors shows I like to duct tape all three of the stand legs to the floor.  It's not foolproof, but usually helps stabilize everything because unfortunately drunks DO grab your stand now and then to stabilize their drunken asses.  I expect it so I don't get pissed off anymore at people when they do that...after all you're in a bar and people drink.  I just grab the stand myself so that it doesn't go anywhere and assist them so everything stays upright.

Also, in case of weather, grab a cheap umbrella and tape the handle to your stand so that it covers your mics.  You don't need to tear down if it starts raining and the music keeps going, which happens at most festivals.  Just make sure you also take a plastic bag to put your recorder, preamp, etc in qat the base of your stand.  Cinch the bag closed leaving a snorkel pointed downward so any rainwater doesn't seep; inside.  I've recorded in virtual monsoons with these methods and all my gear comes out dry as a bone.  A hooded plastic poncho is also a must...doesn't necessarily keep me bone dry, but keeps me from getting soaked through and through.

[Gutbucket]

Great advice from all above.

I've also found out that I should be able to set up in a small firepit which is right-middle of the stage and about 15' back.

That sounds like a perfect location and well protected.  At an local outdoor stage where I occasionally record, the best change I've implemented in years was switching setting up in a water feature, centered and about ~15' back from the stage.

Stands and mounts are a whole corner of taperdom in itself, you'll find multiple threads on them in addition to what we touch on here.  Lighting stands intended for photography work well as taper microphone stands.  They come in many different sizes from tiny to huge. A smaller stand is lighter, easier to carry, easier to fit into small spaces, easier to get into venues, but will not be as stable, cannot go as high, will get more wobbly when extended to near full height, and you will need to more actively protect it. A bigger stand is more stable and secure, which helps if you might not be stationed next to it for protection the entire time.  Bigger stand also allows for going higher when needed and still remain stable, but can still keep the microphones low at seated head height if/when you want or need to. It will be significantly more stable when you extend to close to its max operational height, and that can make a big difference if there is in wind.  But when stowed it will be longer, heavier to carry, and more difficult to get into some places.  Helps to use a stand that can actually go a higher than you actually require, because any telescopic stand is more rigid and stable when each of its sections is not fully extended as far as they will go.   A "large stand" should have a foot print not much larger than a folding chair so it can be well protected within a row of chairs without presenting a trip hazard. A lot of tapers end up with a few different stands to choose from depending on the situation.  You'll need to coordinate things like the connection at the top, but that can generally be adapted to whatever type you end up using, typically a 3/8" threaded stud, a male "spigot" stud or female "spigot" socket.  Clamps, table/low-on-stage stands and other support gear dovetails into this.

Although many tapers always use shock-mounts, like Morst I just mount the mics rigidly using mic clips.  I've not found noise transmission through the stand to be a problem in practice, so I consider shock mounts unnecessary, bulky, simply another thing to be concerned with and manage, and in my tests when setup so as to actually be somewhat effective they end up overly wiggly and droopy.  Sure, in the quiet parts you can thump on the stand might will hear that, but the goal is to keep the stand from being thumped upon anyway, and if some intruder really knocks it you'll hear that regardless.  I'd add them later only if you find "solid-born noise" to be a problem.

Cables need to be long enough to reach to your recording bag containing the recorder, along with a comfortable bit of excess at the bottom.  Generally the recording bag is placed at the base of the stand. If so 15' long microphone cables are usually fine.  Moving forward it will help to run the pair through a woven sleeve, forming a single cable that's much easier to manage without turning into a rat's nest.   Alternately you can tie or tape the pair of cables together every foot or so, but that just doesn't handle and behave nearly as well. Use velcro wire-ties to secure the cable snuggly and neatly against the stand, particularly the top and bottom, preventing snag hazards, noise transmission, and making for a cleaner, less invasive visual profile.  Can sort of spiral-hug the cable around the stand anchoring it mid-way using the protruding knobs of each stand section.

A simple mic bar will get you recording, but one that allows for adjusting the spacing between microphones will be helpful moving forward.  Unfortunately, finding an inexpensive one able to go wide enough to ideally accommodate taper situations (as described in the post on the perception of audience noise above) can be difficult.  A segmented folding bar is attractive in that it need not be extended the full width when a narrow spacing is appropriate.  A lot of tapers end up making their own, either from other hardware, or using modular support systems designed for cameras and lighting gear.  I'd consider one able to space the mics up to 24" (60cm) apart appropriately flexible.

[Gutbucket]

For continuity and for the benefit of others that may come across this, since we're getting into general overall recommendations.. 
It's inappropriate to post PMs received from others, but I can post my own response to the OP's PM request yesterday for a general primer on recording, level setting, and microphone setup:

You're in the right place here at Taperssection, lots of folks here to help and answer your questions.

Ok here's a primer on a few fundamental things:

Placement-
• Other than the situation and equipment simply working correctly, the main thing we have control over which strongly effects the quality of the recording is where the microphones are placed.  Put them were it sounds best. Were the sound is clear and the music is the energetic focus. Where the good musical energy occurs.  Walk around and listen. Close your eyes.  Take all the practical things into mind as well of course in the final decision of where  to setup, but get into the habit of mentally noting where the very best spot for sound is, and the second best spots, and over time you will become very insightful about that.
• Make sure the microphones have a clear and direct visual line of sight to all of the important sound sources.  That might include the PA (direct line of sight all the way into the horns of the PA cabinet), the instruments on stage, whatever the focus of the recording happens to be.  If recording the PA, imagine the "pie-slice" of clear direct sound radiating from the PA and make sure the microphones are within it.  So yeah, directly in-line with the PA is good, but above, below and off to either side of directly on-axis with the PA is ok as long as the sound is still clear there.  Closer is usually better, as long as it does not mean being too far from some other wanted source, and as long as its still sufficiently "on-axis" with the source where the sound is clear rather than muffled.
• There will almost always be some trade off in recording locations between what's best and what's wise, allowable, practically manageable, etc. That's a big part of the art. Think creativity. Different tapers have very different approaches and tolerances in this regard.

Recording levels-
• Best to set levels so you don't need to mess with them during the show, only check to make sure everything is working.  Then you don't have to worry if the changes you make in level are audible on the recording and if you need to go in and correct for them on the computer later.  At first you will probably need to adjust levels, or at least want to tweak them just right.  Try to do so only at the start of the concert and not through out the entire recording.  But if really pegging the peaking meters at some later point, turn it down.
• Find a comfortable level setting that works for the entire event and then don't worry yourself about it too much.  You can adjust overall level of the entire finished recording as needed easily afterward.
• Target level is a "Goldilocks" thing- not too high, not too low. Too high is obvious, it clips and distorts. Too low is less obvious.  It requires more amplification afterward which also raises the noise-floor of the recording, which might be heard as hiss in the quiet parts. Safter to be a bit too low than a bit too high. Leave enough space at the top for a brief unforeseen loud event.  Putting loose numbers on it- If the loudest thing is peaking around -6dB your gold, but a bit risky.  At -10dB or so you're comfortably good.  If only peaking around -20dB no problem, you can raise level later.  If only peaking at -40dB, your too low.  If its a quiet event you may get some noise upon amplification later.
• A bit of noise in the quietest parts is way better than distorted clipping in the loudest parts.

• Generally there will end up being only two or three recording levels you will end up switching between.  Less loud, louder, and extremely loud / on-stage.
• At "less loud" events the loudest thing will be nearby audience applause.  You can determine levels ahead of time by setting up your rig, clapping loudly, and watching the meters and clip lights.  Adjust so your very loudest clapping immediately next to the mics is just barely clipping or just under.  No one will clap that close and loud. If wearing the microphones or recording at head-height nearby clapping will happen much closer to the microphones, thus being higher in level than if recording from a high stand.
• At "louder" events the music is louder than the audience noise or applause. This is more difficult to judge in terms of level setting ahead of time, you'll need to adjust at soundcheck or the start of the event. Typically subwoofer content will be loudest. Overtime you will find a setting that works for most everything amplified when recording from the audience. You needn't worry about levels being a bit low for very loud concerts, in which case the noise-floor of the recording will be determined by the noise-floor of the environment, not your equipment.
• On-stage the loudness dynamics are more extreme. The peaks can be much higher than the average level.  You'll need to lower levels to accommodate those strong dynamic peaks, especially in close proximity to the drums. I find the same setting I use on-stage near a drummer also works for the most extremely loud concerts recorded from the audience, but I don't do much of that.

• The specific level setting values you'd end up using is tied to the gear as well as the nature of the event.  If you change microphones, recorder or whatever, re-asses your recording level setting.

Moving forward-
• Once everything is working smoothly enough and you aren't overloaded with those kinds of details, its a good time to direct a bit more attention to the specifics of microphone configuration and how that can strongly effect the qualities of the resulting recording. That essentially boils down to pickup pattern, angle and spacing between the microphones. I recommend using a mic-support bar that allows you to adjust spacing as well as the angle between the two microphones.  In most taper situations the easiest way to get a good recording from a good sounding recording position is to basically point the microphones directly at the left and right edges of the ensemble or the PA speakers typically flanking them.  Then look at the angle between the microphones and adjust the spacing between them based on that angle.  A wide angle requires less spacing, a narrow angle more spacing.  Details on that made simple are here- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409.


Go record a few things before the important show you are particularly interested in.  Unimportant throw away local band stuff.  Listen critically to the recordings and adjust what you are doing as necessary. Each time you will learn something, get better, home in on it, and grow increasingly confident.

Be cool, make friends, have fun!

Cheers!