Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show

[Gutbucket]

Ambi's are a waste of time...emphasis on "timing" cause its all over the place.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?

They might not be the right tool here but they've been a gamechanger elsewhere, specifically on stage. I haven't been a fan of using one FOB but have used it as a minimalist rig elsewhere (stack tapes mostly)

Thank you everyone for your feedback. This festival will be running two stages - not sure what sort of access I'll have but maybe I'll end up running a rig at each stage and compare notes.

Oh, also wanted to comment on this.  I agree. I find an ambisonic mic is most useful up close, such as on stage, where sources might be wherever, and steering pattern and image afterward is super helpful.  Basically anywhere a coincident pair rig works well but might need tweaking by ear.  Its the ultimate coincident pair in many ways.

But a single coincident pair produces only level-difference stereo.  No time-of-arrival phase/timing information.

From further back I find I really want spaced elements in the configuration that also include phase/timing info and grow less and less happy with just a coincident pair alone.  Still, an ambisonic mic can be very useful in a situation like this where its part of an array that includes other spaced mics.

I've wondered about using a spaced pair of ambisonic mics though.. that one's up to you Roffels!

[roffels]

^That's a "mostly reasonable" setup, totaling 4 or 6 channels depending on what you choose to use in the center.

However, if you want to take it further you can, as you have the mics needed. Start with the same setup and add the shotguns spaced 2' apart, pointed at the outside edge of the stacks.  That addition is likely to dramatically increase SBD-like clarity and the "upfrontness" quality of the resulting recording, which can help from a somewhat distant recording position (although always better if you can setup closer to the sweet spot). To optimize the configuration for that addition, push the omnis out to 4' or 5' wide if possible, and maybe return the center X/Y angle back to 90° or a bit more.

That's 6-8 channels total, depending on what you choose to use in the center.  I know many will consider it overkill, but I can confirm that it works really well outdoors with supercards in the same position that your shotguns would be.

Thanks. I don't really know what I'll be able to work with but I think getting more than 3" wide will be a challenge. I'm really not sure what the layout will be like other than I was told by the organizer I could set up FOH. I imagine if I do get a board feed, the center mics may be redundant. I'm planning to gear up like I won't get a board feed, so hypers xy (or ambisonic) in the middle + spaced omnis seems like my safest bet. 

I would like to try the shotguns pointed at stacks and suppose I may be able to set that up as well if I don't get a board feed. This show will be a special one for me so I really don't want to mess it up. 

[Gutbucket]

Make sure you're comfortable running whatever you decide upon and don't let the nice-to-have complications compromise the gotta-have necessities of making a decent recording, particularly since this one is especially important to you.

Once you have your baseline of omnis + center pair comfortably set, including the shotguns is a nice-to-have. Making that effort makes the most sense if vocals are an important aspect of the performance and you are unable to get SBD (or rely on it).  When recording in good sounding outdoor situations from a decent position, using supercards in that position (which I angle 90° rather than PAS), I generally don't bother with SBD, but will take if not a hassle. 

So, if you can run the shotguns without additional burden, go ahead.  Gives you more options and will provide insight.  You can choose what to use and what to leave out afterwards.  

If you can only manage 3' wide total on the mic-bar that's ok. Orient the omnis so that they are turned and facing outward toward the either side (angled 180° apart).  That will get the omni capsules spaced as far apart as possible, as the mic-clips and mic-bodies should be able to extend them out few extra inches on either side. Using small element "pinpoint omnis" their angular orientation won't matter much, but with omnis that do have a bit of directionality at high frequencies that opposed sideways-facing orientation actually becomes advantageous in the mix with the forward-oriented center mics.  Makes for a bit more open 'air' in the ambiance.

[roffels]

Make sure you're comfortable running whatever you decide upon and don't let the nice-to-have complications compromise the gotta-have necessities of making a decent recording, particularly since this one is especially important to you.

Once you have your baseline of omnis + center pair comfortably set, including the shotguns is a nice-to-have. Making that effort makes the most sense if vocals are an important aspect of the performance and you are unable to get SBD (or rely on it).  When recording in good sounding outdoor situations from a decent position, using supercards in that position (which I angle 90° rather than PAS), I generally don't bother with SBD, but will take if not a hassle.

So, if you can run the shotguns without additional burden, go ahead.  Gives you more options and will provide insight.  You can choose what to use and what to leave out afterwards. 

If you can only manage 3' wide total on the mic-bar that's ok. Orient the omnis so that they are turned and facing outward toward the either side (angled 180° apart).  That will get the omni capsules spaced as far apart as possible, as the mic-clips and mic-bodies should be able to extend them out few extra inches on either side. Using small element "pinpoint omnis" their angular orientation won't matter much, but with omnis that do have a bit of directionality at high frequencies that opposed sideways-facing orientation actually becomes advantageous in the mix with the forward-oriented center mics.  Makes for a bit more open 'air' in the ambiance.

Your first note is really important. I've taken other people's advice or critique on the fly and my tapes were worse off for it.

Appreciate you sharing your philosophy. I think the beauty of having the shotguns in the mix is that I have a safety rig and that lets me experiment with the other mics. I have an f8n pro, f6, and f3 so running extra mics isn't an issue unless I'm in someone's way/taking up too big of a footprint.

[Craig T]

The sum can be greater than the parts. The big question becomes how much gear and effort you wish to put into it]

Yes

[roffels]

The sum can be greater than the parts. The big question becomes how much gear and effort you wish to put into it]

Yes

The gear bag gets heavier and heavier every year.

[roffels]

I really like spaced omni's with cards or hypers in the middle at x/y config.  Here is a sample of 3' split CA14 omni's and center akg ck61's in x/y.  The ck63's actually clean it up a little more.
https://archive.org/details/DSO2017-07-01.Highberry_Matrix/DSO2017-08-01S1t02.flac

This sounds absolutely fantastic. I can only hope to get something sounding as good as this. Especially given that it's a festival environment, I'm sure there will lots of folks talking. 

Thank you for sharing, this definitely gives me something to shoot for. The shotgun recording also sounds good, but I'm kind of in awe of what you managed with the CK61s and CA14s. 

[morst]

I really like spaced omni's with cards or hypers in the middle at x/y config.  Here is a sample of 3' split CA14 omni's and center akg ck61's in x/y.  The ck63's actually clean it up a little more.
https://archive.org/details/DSO2017-07-01.Highberry_Matrix/DSO2017-08-01S1t02.flac

Off topic:
The last track of that DSO show starts with a Dylan song which is not called Everybody Must Get Stoned, by the way.

https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/rainy-day-women-12-35/

see also
https://www.dead.net/song/reuben-and-cerise

[Gutbucket]

I really like spaced omni's with cards or hypers in the middle at x/y config.  Here is a sample of 3' split CA14 omni's and center akg ck61's in x/y.  The ck63's actually clean it up a little more.
https://archive.org/details/DSO2017-07-01.Highberry_Matrix/DSO2017-08-01S1t02.flac

This sounds absolutely fantastic. I can only hope to get something sounding as good as this. Especially given that it's a festival environment, I'm sure there will lots of folks talking.

Thank you for sharing, this definitely gives me something to shoot for. The shotgun recording also sounds good, but I'm kind of in awe of what you managed with the CK61s and CA14s.

^ An excellent example of the technique, and a good confirmation that technique / how you use it is more important than the gear itself.

Of course that's subservient to how good it sounds live at the recording position. I've been repeatedly impressed by the sound quality over or the past decade or so at the handful of DSO shows Ive attended. Impressive. They've got it down.

Also good as example of the Goldilocks approach of seeking the optimal middle way. Not too simple, not too complex.  Might additional channels improve on it? Sure. Are they needed? Not to my ear. Anything beyond this is an extra side of gravy.

[grawk]

I've put together what might make for a pretty good outdoor festival rig.  2 DPA2006 and 1 DPA4017.  But I have no idea when I'll be able to put that setup to use.

[Gutbucket]

^That's something of a dream rig for me. Essentially a leap forward from my less pedigreed version of the same, around which my current OMT8 rig is built: 2 DPA4061 + AT BP4029 in the center.  My primary concern about full sized omnis such as those lovely DPA2006 is the practical one of supporting them spaced out at the width I want.  Good small featherweight "Lav" omnis like the miniature DPA (and others including the CA-14s above), have proven capable of doing a great job and are far easier to push out wide on a thin lightweight bar that can nearly visually disappear in many situations, which makes for the right practical trade off in my way of thinking. The "how its used" being more fundamental than "what's used" thing again. I'll throw more money at the directional mics where I hear significantly more difference on a cost basis.  That said, 3' spacing should be about right for that rig and is doable with "full sized" SD omnis from a single stand or clamp.

I do urge you to try a fig-8 coincident with the 4017 (4 channels total), as I find that addition brings significant betterness and joy to me afterward verses a solitary mic in the center, and that addition remains well ahead of the point of diminishing returns in adding "nice-to-have" channels.  Over many listening sessions where I mute various channels of my OMT8 recordings, partly in search of which minimal channel count version I feel I'd be satisfied with, it always comes down to the addition of that Side-channel to the center (4 channels), or the addition of a supercardioid pair at ~60cm/90°, forming an LCR triplet with the center mic (5 channels).  There is a similar significant improvement in betterness either way, yet of a somewhat different nature.  LCR in the center is more precise, clear and direct, which is most apparent on the imaging of transient-rich material like drums, and can be helpful when things get really energetic and dense.  That's where my suggestion to the OP to maybe use the AKG shotguns in that position if throwing caution to the wind and going all-out on the mic-count comes from.  Mid/Side in the center is more lush, open and 3-dimensional, less precise.  Either addition helps blend the center and omnis together more seamlessly.  Both together are better still, can sort of play one off the other, but that's 6 channels.

Try adding the fig-8 though.  I consider that or a narrow X/Y in the center to be optimal 4 channel rigs outdoors.

[goodcooker]

This is a valid concern that I think is missed by tapers sometimes in the "quest for the best".

Venues are often less likely than they were before the Covid pandemic to be okay with big light stand tripods and wide arrays. Stands are much more of an issue now than they used to be and sometimes other concert goers aren't a fan of even a small near coincident pair of mics.

I clamp a lot more than I used to and tend to go more compact nowadays. Outside in the summer seems to be much less of a challenge.