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Author Topic: what do you make if this "24bit" show?  (Read 6052 times)

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Offline Nick's Picks

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what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« on: January 19, 2005, 04:41:30 PM »

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2005, 04:56:27 PM »
that makes no sense to me.  intuitively, adding 2 16bit sources together does not create anything other than a 16 bit source.  it may be called 24bit, but those extra bits do not contain any extra information, I wouldn't think.  unless he's got some kind of upsampling going on in whatever audio program he uses.  then it could make any 16 bit source into a 24bit source, but the software would still  just be approximating the the additional info.

Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2005, 05:10:45 PM »
paging an engineer.... Heath, Jason B, Bueller?
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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2005, 05:12:22 PM »
fwiw - found this in the info file... "Mixed by dan@am-dig.com"

didn't you work there Heath?
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2005, 05:23:23 PM »
I've been trying to tell Dan that I think he might be wasting his time...
he says:

When you combine two 16/44 sources to single
16/44 source, you have made a new source.  Not just a new source on
paper either but a real, living, breathing source.  The SBD + AUD matrix
mix doesn't sound like the SBD, doesn't sound like the AUD but is
actually a new animal altogether.  (This is 2 channel mind you, the 5.1
is a horse of a different color.)

What I was able to do is take the two 16/44 sources and do a 50/50
mixdown to a new 24bit source.  There was no upsampling of either
source.  The two sources combined made a single 24 bit master.  Dunno if
master is the right word but seeing as it is the only one, I guess it
is. 

The question remains the same.  Is there enough data in two 16/44
sources that when combined can make a single 24 bit version?  Wouldn't
the answer be just plain math?

FYI: I left it at 44.1, so it is a 24/44 recording.  In my experience it
is the bit depth that is much more critical than the sample rate.  Plus
the mixdown did not allow me to set the sampling frequency only the bit
depth.  I would have to "after-the-fact" change from 44 to 88 or 96,
whatever.  I did not.

Anyway.  I was doing some fun A/B on the boat playing the 24/44 and
switching to the 16/44.  The high rez seems to have lost a bit of the
harshness and sounded smoother, easier and rounder.  It is hard to find
words to describe sound but in short, I think the 24/44 matrix mix
sounded better than the identical matrix mix at 16/44.  Not a night and
day change mind you, a very subtle but also very real difference.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 08:05:05 AM by Nick's Picks »

Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2005, 06:10:37 PM »
huh? I was giving him the benefit of the doubt until I read that...
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2005, 06:11:47 PM »
I see he was listening while on a BOAT too...
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2005, 06:18:45 PM »
I see he was listening while on a BOAT too...

he wanted to be somewhere in the ocean where no room reflections interfered with the purity of the sound quality.  just him and the open water.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2005, 06:19:50 PM »
Mixing two 16-bit sources = 24-bit?  I think not.  His software upsampled to 24-bit, he just doesn't know it.
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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 06:24:21 PM »
I know Heath worked at Am-Dig, given his knowledege and experience I kind of assumed everyone who worked there was like that... perhaps not.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2005, 06:26:21 PM »
I see he was listening while on a BOAT too...

he wanted to be somewhere in the ocean where no room reflections interfered with the purity of the sound quality. just him and the open water.

I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline scb

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2005, 06:41:31 PM »
run it through a bit meter and see how many bits are actually being used

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2005, 06:53:29 PM »
run it through a bit meter and see how many bits are actually being used

But this won't actually address the issue.  It could very well be a 24-bit file, i.e. use all 24-bits of resolution - not from simply adding two 16-bit files, but rather from the software upsampling during processing.
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Offline dnsacks

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 07:03:35 PM »
My gut reaction is to agree with DAN on this.  I would think that sum of the information contained in 2 distinct 16/44.1 sources would create more data than could be contained within a single 16/44.1k destination file without data loss occuring.  Woudn't the (or any other manipulative process) likely take place at 32bit plus to minimize data loss in the first place?

Thus, combining the 2 sources into a single higher resolution destination file would seem to not be a bad idea and the 24 bit file COULD sound quantitatively better than the 16 bit file.




Offline scb

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2005, 07:24:11 PM »
run it through a bit meter and see how many bits are actually being used

But this won't actually address the issue.  It could very well be a 24-bit file, i.e. use all 24-bits of resolution - not from simply adding two 16-bit files, but rather from the software upsampling during processing.

yes, but what if it only shows 17 bits?  that might tell you something right there

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2005, 07:31:39 PM »
I would think that sum of the information contained in 2 distinct 16/44.1 sources would create more data than could be contained within a single 16/44.1k destination file without data loss occuring.

Adding two 16-bit files, meaning we now have double the amount of information, does not equal greater resolution, greater precision.  It merely means we have double the amount of data at the same resolution/precision.

Woudn't the (or any other manipulative process) likely take place at 32bit plus to minimize data loss in the first place?

Yes, but in order to do so we must upsample the 16-bit files to achieve greater resolution.
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Offline dnsacks

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2005, 07:49:24 PM »
I would think that sum of the information contained in 2 distinct 16/44.1 sources would create more data than could be contained within a single 16/44.1k destination file without data loss occuring.



Adding two 16-bit files, meaning we now have double the amount of information, does not equal greater resolution, greater precision.  It merely means we have double the amount of data at the same resolution/precision.

Woudn't the (or any other manipulative process) likely take place at 32bit plus to minimize data loss in the first place?

Yes, but in order to do so we must upsample the 16-bit files to achieve greater resolution.

Brian -- Understood -- but it sounds like what dan did was combine/mix the 2 16bit/44.1k files at whatever resolution his daw performed this function and instructed the resulting file to be created as a 24 bit/44.1k file -- if the mixing is performed at a higher resolution, wouldn't that be tantamount to upsampling in the first place? 

The heart of my logic is a presumption that it would be impossible to add together the data contained in two 16bit/44.1k files to create a 16bit/44.1k target file without some of the data being lost.  The only way I could see to maintain the resolution contiained in the sum of these 2 files would be to increase the available space (resolution) of the target file.  Perhaps my underlying presumption is faulty?

Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2005, 08:32:36 PM »
The heart of my logic is a presumption that it would be impossible to add together the data contained in two 16bit/44.1k files to create a 16bit/44.1k target file without some of the data being lost.
so, when a studio engineer overdubbs a session he is loosing data if he keeps the resulting file at the original resolution and bit-depth of the source files?
no

Dan is correct when he says he didn't upsample as upsampling would create a 48, 88.2, 96, etc file.
he DID increase bit depth though.


the water's clean and innocent

Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2005, 08:37:02 PM »
how did he increase bit depth? It's not that I don't believe you it's that I want to understand what he actually did to the file. Thanks!
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2005, 08:40:27 PM »
the only way to go from a 16bit file to a 24bit file is to increase bit depth via a plugin.
you can take a 16bit file, apply uv22hr and get a 24bit file.

all its doing is adding dither noise to fill up the extra 8 bits


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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2005, 08:41:34 PM »
okay, thanks... makes much more sense now. I wonder what plugin he used?
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Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2005, 09:35:07 PM »
I agree that he had to have used a plugin to apply dither and create a new file in his DAW (not sure what he's using nowadays).  Luvean is correct, i believe, that the extra 8 bits are just dither.  I'll email dan and find out what type of software he's running now.

FWIW, when Dan references listening to it on his "boat", he is actually referring to his home.  He has a sweet houseboat that he lives on up in Connecticut.  Very nice playback system and home theater on it as well.  It's not like he's listening to it on a boombox on his dingy  ;D
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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2005, 09:38:50 PM »
thanks so much heath... I was a little confused, for all I know he could have some ns-10's on that thing ;)

I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2005, 09:43:30 PM »
thanks so much heath... I was a little confused, for all I know he could have some ns-10's on that thing ;)



lol +T for the cross reference  ;D
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Offline MattD

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2005, 09:51:23 PM »
Okay, I'm gonna try to take the mathematical approach here. When you combine two waves, they are summed ... if each wave has a peak with a value of 1 at a particular sample, the summed value of that sample is 2. Likewise, if one wave is +1 and one is -.5, the result is a .5 value at that sample, and so on.

At any given sample, each 16-bit sample can have one of 65536 discrete values. When you add them together, two summed waves can have one of 131072 values. By the math, Scott's theory holds. It takes an extra bit (now at 2^17 values) to hold two summed waves.
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2005, 09:53:04 PM »
Okay, I'm gonna try to take the mathematical approach here. When you combine two waves, they are summed ... if each wave has a peak with a value of 1 at a particular sample, the summed value of that sample is 2. Likewise, if one wave is +1 and one is -.5, the result is a .5 value at that sample, and so on.

At any given sample, each 16-bit sample can have one of 65536 discrete values. When you add them together, two summed waves can have one of 131072 values. By the math, Scott's theory holds. It takes an extra bit (now at 2^17 values) to hold two summed waves.

true, but you dont know where he had his master fader set


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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2005, 09:53:47 PM »
thanks so much heath... I was a little confused, for all I know he could have some ns-10's on that thing ;)



lol +T for the cross reference ;D

my sarcasm is subtle like that :)
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Offline MattD

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2005, 09:59:59 PM »
true, but you dont know where he had his master fader set

You're right. I was going for a theoretical maximum with that. Just that it was possible to "gain" bit depth, nothing more. :)
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2005, 10:04:58 PM »
true, but you dont know where he had his master fader set

You're right. I was going for a theoretical maximum with that. Just that it was possible to "gain" bit depth, nothing more. :)

actually, he would have to be working on the files in a "float" environment or the 17th bit would exceed 0


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Offline dnsacks

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2005, 10:05:51 PM »
Thanks, now makes perfect sense

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2005, 10:53:23 PM »
would it be wrong for me to moderate out the math?

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2005, 11:05:31 PM »
would it be wrong for me to moderate out the math?

does it make your head hurt?  ;D


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Offline mmedley.

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2005, 11:18:41 PM »
I love Math. That is why I majored in it!  ;D

Good explanation. I learned something new today!

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2005, 12:22:35 AM »
Dan is correct when he says he didn't upsample as upsampling would create a 48, 88.2, 96, etc file.
he DID increase bit depth though.

Duh.  Wrong verbage, that's what I meant:  he increased bit-depth - thanks for the correction!  Your follow-up post makes it more clear to me (damn, I have a tough time discussing this stuff!):

the only way to go from a 16bit file to a 24bit file is to increase bit depth via a plugin.
you can take a 16bit file, apply uv22hr and get a 24bit file.

all its doing is adding dither noise to fill up the extra 8 bits

Edit to add:  if upsampling is changing the sample rate from a lower to a higher rate (through some sort of interpolation, I assume), what's the proper terminology for upping the bit-depth, from say 16- to 24-bit?  I've mostly seen upsampling used to apply to upping the sample rate and/or bit depth.  But maybe there's bit-depth specific terminology?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 12:40:45 AM by Brian Skalinder »
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2005, 12:43:12 AM »
what's the proper terminology for upping the bit-depth, from say 16- to 24-bit?  I've mostly seen upsampling used to apply to upping the sample rate and/or bit depth.  But maybe there's bit-depth specific terminology?

I've always heard it referred to as dithering.
"dither" is just the noise used when changing bit-depth, either in the positive or negative.
of course, there are many types of "dither"


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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2005, 07:29:05 AM »
Very interesting people.

Dan and I have been discussing it...


He is using CoolEdit Pro 2.0, fwiw.
I'll see if I can find more stuff from the thread on the BUDD list to post regarding this.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 08:06:50 AM by Nick's Picks »

Offline amdig1

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2005, 08:45:04 AM »
I love this thread and this discussion.  This was exactly what I was hoping for.  However, I think it is better to refrain from any personal pithy comments.  Non personal pithy comments are funny and levity is great.

> huh? I was giving him the benefit of the doubt until I read that...
> I see he was listening while on a BOAT too...
> I know Heath worked at Am-Dig, given his knowledge and experience I kind of assumed everyone who worked there was like that... perhaps not.

Tim, these are all you comments directed at me and not the subject matter.  If I have wronged you in some way I apologize but I think ragging on my knowledge and my home is unnecessary.

I am not trying to fool anyone, I think I have made it abundantly clear what we have and how it came to be.  As anyone been able to download and review the material objectively? I am unable to get a real A/B comparison as I have to rely on the internal A>D of my DVD-A player and the A>D of my CD player.  I prefer looking at real world science in conjunction with the science room.  Sometimes less reading and more listening is of help. 

As Heath (hey man) as pointed out my setup is less than rudimentary.  However, I'll need to correct him as I do not live on a houseboat but actually a Motoryacht.  Short summary is 4 digital surround systems (from the low end $500 in bedroom to a $2500 in the main salon).  All 4 units speak to each other and you can walk up from the master stateroom to the salon into the aft cabin and then up to the flybridge as 24 speakers and 4 subwoofers fill each room.  The system also incorporates a 12v system that is wired throughout and is also in the loop.  At that point you can have 34 speakers and 6 subwoofers in unison.  Beside the audio capacity she is also equipped with 7 digital flat panel monitors including a 42 inch plasma.  Just a wee shy of a boom box and a dinghy.

Not that any of this is important with the subject matter but I'd like to clear that up.  As my knowledge was brought into question I'll address.  I am not a sound engineer and what I lack in schooling I think is compensated with real world experience.  You don't need school to hear.  Anyone can be a judge in what sounds better.  B/c that ends up being a personal choice with many mitigating factors it is equally important to look at the o's and 1's too.  I would assume that the right person with the right gear can tell us more.

Anyway I am really interested in finding out what is at play hear, pun intended.  Is there and audible difference?  Is the increased bit depth worth the bandwidth and/or the time and expense of creating DVD-A of this type of multichannel mixdown?  Has the 16/44 mixdown lost anything important compared to the 24 bit?  Would 20 bit suffice and/or be better?

This is certainly a worthy science project.

Dan

Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2005, 09:11:42 AM »
Dan, I dont think anyone said it DIDN'T sound better.

I believe the it was mainly a question of how you ended up with the 24bit file when working with 16bit sources.
whether intentionally or not, you dithered it to 24bit...it didnt do it by itself as the text file accomponying the show would lead everyone to believe.


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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2005, 09:27:48 AM »
Good to see you poking your head in here Dan.  I was going to point you to the lsite to check out the discussion today, but you beat me to it!  Anyhow, regarding the topic at hand...  Luvean is correct in stating that dithering had to have taken place for the 16 bit sources to get to a 24 bit fileset.  It's just a matter of how your DAW handled the conversion.  I'm assuming what you did was create a new session (at a bit depth of 24 bit) and import the 16 bit filesets into individual channels to mixdown.  When these files were imported into the DAW, they were dithered to 24 bit so that they could be used in the session by the software.  You then mixed at 24 bit and your resulting file from the mixdown was a 24 bit file. 

What I would like to hear (for my own sake) is the exact same mixdown performed in the same DAW, but in a 16bit session.  Then compare the 16bit mixdown with the 24bit mixdown to hear exactly what the difference is...I am going to download and listen here in the studio and I'll let you know if I can hear an audible difference between the 24 and 16 bit versions. 

Dan--I also want to take the time to personally thank you for all the great stuff you've been seeding for a while.  Matrixes, DTS mixes, etc...  You really put a lot of time into this stuff, and I, for one, absolutely love it!  Keep up the good work.

H
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Offline amdig1

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2005, 09:44:37 AM »
Thank you Heath.  I agree and am compairing the same sources at 24 and 16.  But have the diffent D to A problem.  I need more people to check this stuff out.  I will be uploading GD 7-16-76 in DTS, 16 matrix and 24 DVD-A matrix soon.  So we will have something alse that we can shake, rattle, sniff and probe.

Any text file is subject to misinterpreted.  I am open for suggestions.  I try to be as detailed as possible as you can tell by the super lengthy text file included.  At the core of the controversy with the text file and the recording is this..."I did not upsample either source to 24 bit.  The multitrack mixdown was done in 24 bit and the 'new source' is now 24 bit".  Or some crazy variation, thereof.  That's what were are looking into.  I don't want to confuse or mislead anyone and I don't think I am.  I've put out all info I have on this and we are trying to see if it is worth it.  That what was done and I think we all know that.  Better description I can include on the text file anyone??

> Dan, I dont think anyone said it DIDN'T sound better.

I think that is at the heart of what we are trying to get at, no?  That's all I am interested in.  At the end of the technobabble rainbow, which sounds better.  Right?

It's not gonna hurt my feeling if the debate lends itself to the common consensus that saving, distributing and most importantly listening to this 24 bit version is a waste, or possible worse than the same mixdown at 16 bit.  I am very concerned that the extra bit are just noise even if ambient agreeable noise.  Are the extra bits desirable, useful, the opposite?  I feel like we still don't know.  I don't trust my "real world" listening comparison enough and hope someone can do their own.  I think we still don't know the answer here and curiosity is tweaked.  One thing is true.  I can save allot of time, money and bandwidth by staying with 16 bit.

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2005, 09:52:31 AM »
I'll definitely post my thoughts once I have had a chance to download and listen to both on the monitors here at the studio. 
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2005, 10:10:56 AM »
and sorry for calling it a houseboat instead of a motoryacht...my bad  ;) ;D 
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2005, 10:17:25 AM »
and sorry for calling it a houseboat instead of a motoryacht...my bad  ;) ;D 

 :P

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2005, 10:30:18 AM »
damon--now that you're a mod, can you make a motion to bring back the smilies.  I want to flip someone off, and the :flippa: would really be helpful  :P


back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2005, 10:32:36 AM »
it's my understanding that when we switched over to v.2, we lost the ability to plug in those additional smilies...

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2005, 10:36:13 AM »
weak
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2005, 10:37:55 AM »
i guess you could send your complaints in to the forum software authors.

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2005, 10:46:07 AM »
Any text file is subject to misinterpreted. I am open for suggestions. I try to be as detailed as possible as you can tell by the super lengthy text file included. At the core of the controversy with the text file and the recording is this..."I did not upsample either source to 24 bit. The multitrack mixdown was done in 24 bit and the 'new source' is now 24 bit". Or some crazy variation, thereof. That's what were are looking into. I don't want to confuse or mislead anyone and I don't think I am.

Thanks for stopping in, Dan.  FWIW, I don't feel you were intentionally confusing or misleading, but I do believe the info nonetheless confuses a lot of people.  The "no upsampling" comment in particular.  I've traditionally seen - mostly in the playback world - the term "upsampling" used to apply to both increasing the sample rate and/or bit-depth.  Thanks to luvean's post, it seems the proper term for changing the bit-depth, either up or down, is dither.  I think we all knew about down, but didn't know dither could also apply to upping the bit-depth (though it makes sense now that I think about it).  At any rate, my point:  the confusion / discussion over converting two 16-bit files to 24-bit has more to do with the general level of knowledge (or lack thereof) around converting 16-bit to 24-bit.  End result:  good discussion all around!

I've put out all info I have on this and we are trying to see if it is worth it. That what was done and I think we all know that. Better description I can include on the text file anyone??

In hindsight - given how often the playback industry uses "upsampling" to apply to both sample rate and bit-depth - I find the "no upsampling" comment a bit misleading, though obviously not intentionally.

I think that is at the heart of what we are trying to get at, no? That's all I am interested in. At the end of the technobabble rainbow, which sounds better. Right?

It's not gonna hurt my feeling if the debate lends itself to the common consensus that saving, distributing and most importantly listening to this 24 bit version is a waste, or possible worse than the same mixdown at 16 bit. I am very concerned that the extra bit are just noise even if ambient agreeable noise. Are the extra bits desirable, useful, the opposite? I feel like we still don't know. I don't trust my "real world" listening comparison enough and hope someone can do their own. I think we still don't know the answer here and curiosity is tweaked. One thing is true. I can save allot of time, money and bandwidth by staying with 16 bit.

You may be interested in Nick's personal experiences on true 24-bit sources (not upsampled/dithered) v. playback upsampling from 16- to 24-bit:   

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=21376.0

Unfortunately, I've not yet done any testing myself - either similar to Nick's or comparing your 16-bit v. up-dithered 24-bit - as I haven't entered the 24-bit playback world.  One of these days...
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Offline dklein

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2005, 10:50:03 AM »
I haven't downloaded the files yet but what Dan has done makes total sense to me.  

Changing the word length / bit depth is easy when you're making it bigger.  You just add zeros (not noise or dither).  Money analogy: $12.59 can be expressed as 12.59 or 12.590000000000
- nothing destructive going on here
- making it smaller is where the tricks come in (how would you round/truncate this in whole dollars).  This will come later.

Dan is combining two sources and probably performing at least one other step like normalization, maybe even some eq.  Most audio editors will perform all the calculations at higher bit depths (like 32 fp) and dither back down after each operation.  
- as soon as you start doing multiple steps on a value, all of those extra decimal places in the example above could really come in handy but are only available if you're working in a higher bit depth..

Back to the money analogy - it's like doing a bunch of calculations where you had to round to the nearest dollar after each step (16 bit mode).  The alternative is to run CEP in 32 bit fp mode, allowing you to keep these longer, more accurate working values while you edit and then do your reduction at the end.  This produces a more 'accurate' result.

So if you're in 16 bit mode and you do multiple steps (mixdown, eq, amplitude change) then you're better off doing the whole thing in at a higher bit depth and doing one dither at the end.  And in this context, I would think that the 24 bit version could very well sound better when compared to the 16 bit version if all the destructive editing was done at a higher bit depth and dithered down at the end.

Note that this applies to single source recordings as well (not just matrixes).  If you are going to perform more than 1 step of destructive processing (including 'normalization') then in theory, operating at a higher bit depth and dithering at the end produces a more mathematically accurate version that has only been subjected to one dither stage instead of one per editing operation.

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2005, 10:57:39 AM »
I haven't downloaded the files yet but what Dan has done makes total sense to me.  [snip]

Great explanation, David - and you beat me to it (good thing, as you explained it better than I would have), I was digging through CEP to verify it performs internal processing at 32-bit fp.  (It does, though I believe can be configured in multitrack mode to process at 16-bits if desired.)  I think the confusion comes, for me, anyway, from the "no upsampling" comment in the text file as I'm used to seeing the term "upsampling" applied to both sample rate and bit-depth.  At any rate, already blathered on about that in my previous post, so that's enough of that.
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2005, 10:07:26 PM »

As Heath (hey man) as pointed out my setup is less than rudimentary.  However, I'll need to correct him as I do not live on a houseboat but actually a Motoryacht.  Short summary is 4 digital surround systems (from the low end $500 in bedroom to a $2500 in the main salon).  All 4 units speak to each other and you can walk up from the master stateroom to the salon into the aft cabin and then up to the flybridge as 24 speakers and 4 subwoofers fill each room.  The system also incorporates a 12v system that is wired throughout and is also in the loop.  At that point you can have 34 speakers and 6 subwoofers in unison.  Beside the audio capacity she is also equipped with 7 digital flat panel monitors including a 42 inch plasma.  Just a wee shy of a boom box and a dinghy.



 A brilliant discussion indeed!
the one thing that stands out as a true realization for me is that Dan needs to through a fucking party!!
:)

And thats a great analogy as well.
Why is it that money always seems to make more cents?

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« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 10:10:48 PM by Nick's Picks »

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2005, 11:35:33 PM »
Just saw this...

Dan thanks for the explanation. No harm intended, pithy comments are just my way. It just wasn't clear at all from the .txt file or your original response what was going on, they were pretty ambigous. Thanks for the clarification...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 01:47:13 AM by Tim »
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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2005, 08:47:37 AM »
Just saw this...

Dan thanks for the explanation. No harm intended, pithy comments are just my way. It just wasn't clear at all from the .txt file or your original response what was going on, they were pretty ambigous. Thanks for the clarification...

yeah dan, don't ever take Tim too seriously....he's always a douche  ;) :P
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Offline rustoleum

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2005, 03:45:15 PM »
For the record, I haven't downloaded this but I find the conversation very interesting.  Now just to add to the confusion    ;D

Let's suppose that:

   Source A is a 16bit source... therefore it contains up to 96 db of info

   Source B is also a 16bit source and it also therefore contains up to 96 db of info.

So, what happens if we mix down these two sources in a 24 bit environment, but offset each source by say 12 db (2 bits)?

We could end up with a 24 bit recording where 18 bits are actually in use (108 db of dynamic information vs the original 96).   I have no idea if the difference between mixing down 2 16bit recordings into a single 16bit recording vs this 18 bit dealio would be audible, but the concept of offsetting the sbd w/ the aud is akin to making a matrix mix where the sbd is higher in the mix than the aud.

Thoughts?

Edited to create a picture of what I was saying instead of trying to deal with this darn editor and the spacing issues that occur.  The column on the left represents the 24 bit source that is generated from the two 16 bit sources.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 03:53:24 PM by rustoleum »

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2005, 03:57:00 PM »
One more thing... I believe my drawing is a little misleading in that it would be the top 6 bits that would not be used in this example.  Everything would be shifted 'down' instead of having the bottom 6 bits not used as the drawing illustrates.  I could be wrong on that point, though.


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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2005, 04:44:56 PM »
 

As Heath (hey man) as pointed out my setup is less than rudimentary.  However, I'll need to correct him as I do not live on a houseboat but actually a Motoryacht.  Short summary is 4 digital surround systems (from the low end $500 in bedroom to a $2500 in the main salon).  All 4 units speak to each other and you can walk up from the master stateroom to the salon into the aft cabin and then up to the flybridge as 24 speakers and 4 subwoofers fill each room.  The system also incorporates a 12v system that is wired throughout and is also in the loop.  At that point you can have 34 speakers and 6 subwoofers in unison.  Beside the audio capacity she is also equipped with 7 digital flat panel monitors including a 42 inch plasma.  Just a wee shy of a boom box and a dinghy.


i would have loved wiring this system, and of course, watching and listening.  how about some pics of the headend, dan?
we all live downstream.

 

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