M/S Decode in Post?

[macdaddy]

i'm pretty sure that the front of the lobe is always going to face left.

m/s formulas are M+L and M-R, so if they were reversed, the summing formulas will be all messed up.

can't you turn the fig 8 180 degrees on that thing?

you can get it so that it sets up that way... i just had been doing it reverse...

so i should be able to manually do the conversion still, right..? just not sure exactly how to do that in audacity...

+t for the input...

[BWolf]

http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/ms_stereo.htm

my previous post should say L = M+S and R = M-S.  Sorry.  But still, same concept.  This might also explain why one channel is louder then the other.  You can still do it manually, but you might have to reverse the polarity on the left instead of the right.  Or you might be able to invert the entire track and then use the regular M/S formulas...

edit to add:
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/midsize.html
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/december/index4.html

[RebelRebel]

Rick, check this out

http://sound.eti.pg.gda.pl/student/tn/MicrophoneTechniques_I.pdf

I think SF can do it natively. I forget how, but search the help file -- pretty sure it's built in somewhere...

Right you are.  Pan/Expand off the process menu.  Also have the Waves S1 Imager plugin that will work in sampllitude (which I use to bring in the whole 96/24 tracks, process and dither down to 16 bit), but that seems less "intuitive" than the soundforge one.  Guess I'll have to go out and record a "throwaway" to play with before going out and trying it on a "keeper".

On the TLM-170, I'm assuming the front of the mic (in figure goes to the left side, and rear to the right?  I've done blum a number of times from onstage, but in the room, too much close crowd on the rear lobes - especially in venue's where the floor goes up and 5 rows back may end up higher than 6/7' mic height - so you've got folks chatting directly into your rear pattern.

I know Ratdogs sound guy runs M/S from FOH (which I would think unusual, due to how far back he is).

I was just thinking of giving it a try, just to see if there's a major difference between M/S & Blum in the final output...

Thanks for the input guys...

Rick

[RebelRebel]

yes...led is front

yeah, the front of the lobe will face left.  this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned.  if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.

+t and good luck!

it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right.  i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...

[BWolf]

yes...led is front

yeah, the front of the lobe will face left.  this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned.  if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.

+t and good luck!

it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right.  i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...

yeah, but the LED could rotate to both the left and the right.  it should face left.

[macdaddy]

http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/ms_stereo.htm

my previous post should say L = M+S and R = M-S.  Sorry.  But still, same concept.  This might also explain why one channel is louder then the other.  You can still do it manually, but you might have to reverse the polarity on the left instead of the right.  Or you might be able to invert the entire track and then use the regular M/S formulas...

edit to add:
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/midsize.html
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/december/index4.html

so for the ones that i have recorded that had the fig 8 facing right, i should be inverting the side that mixes with the left, correct..? you are inverting the side signal of the channel/side where the back of the fig 8 was pointed...?

[terrapinj]

http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/ms_stereo.htm

my previous post should say L = M+S and R = M-S.  Sorry.  But still, same concept.  This might also explain why one channel is louder then the other.  You can still do it manually, but you might have to reverse the polarity on the left instead of the right.  Or you might be able to invert the entire track and then use the regular M/S formulas...

edit to add:
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/midsize.html
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/december/index4.html

so for the ones that i have recorded that had the fig 8 facing right, i should be inverting the side that mixes with the left, correct..? you are inverting the side signal of the channel/side where the back of the fig 8 was pointed...?

this explains everything 

[sickrick43]

yes...led is front

yeah, the front of the lobe will face left.  this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned.  if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.

+t and good luck!

it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right.  i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...

Thanks for the interesting document.  Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.

Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic.  Have heard of some using omni.  Which sounds better?

Rick

[audBall]

Hey Rick,

Did you see page 14 of that pdf?   It seems to give a good idea of the outcome when various patterns are used for the mid.

Also, here's some sheets that Nick posted a while back that are pretty similar:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=66414.0

[RebelRebel]

Hey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.

I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.

of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pair

yes...led is front

yeah, the front of the lobe will face left.  this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned.  if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.

+t and good luck!

it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right.  i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...

Thanks for the interesting document.  Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.

Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic.  Have heard of some using omni.  Which sounds better?

Rick

[macdaddy]

Hey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.

I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.

of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pair

yes...led is front

yeah, the front of the lobe will face left.  this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned.  if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.

+t and good luck!

it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right.  i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...

Thanks for the interesting document.  Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.

Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic.  Have heard of some using omni.  Which sounds better?

Rick

so what is the advantage of m/s over x-y..?

[RebelRebel]

ability to change stereo width

Hey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.

I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.

of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pair

yes...led is front

yeah, the front of the lobe will face left.  this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned.  if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.

+t and good luck!

it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right.  i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...

Thanks for the interesting document.  Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.

Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic.  Have heard of some using omni.  Which sounds better?

Rick

so what is the advantage of m/s over x-y..?

[sickrick43]

ability to change stereo width

Hey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.

I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.

of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pair

yes...led is front

yeah, the front of the lobe will face left.  this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned.  if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.

+t and good luck!

it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right.  i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...

Thanks for the interesting document.  Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.

Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic.  Have heard of some using omni.  Which sounds better?

Rick

so what is the advantage of m/s over x-y..?

Also, better mono compatibility (not that anyone here is worried about mono in this day and age)...

I was exploring this as a better (or just an) alternative to blumlien - which works well close up, but not so well from further back.  My curiousity was aroused by RatDogs soundguy - who runs M/S from FOH (which is pretty far back).  But I didn't want to setup the 744 for M/S, as it's really difficult to monitor soundstage in a loud room, on the fly - hence my curiosity about methods for doing it in post...

My usual setup back in the room is X/Y Hyper.  The ability to get "as good" a source recording, and adjust the width of the soundstage in post - could potentially make for a better result by being able to narrow the soundstage for boomy rooms, and widen it for "dry" rooms.  Also, to potentially compensate for being further back from the source than optimum.

Something I want to experiment with in the future...

Rick

[nic]

just to see if there's a major difference between M/S & Blum in the final output...

M/S will have much better bass response compared to Blumlein. (I always found Blumlein to be very thin sounding...ymmv)
when i had the 414s I ran M/S alot....using the subcard as mid was my favorite!
-omni tended to be too bassy, hyper nowhere near enough bass and card just a little lacking...then again, I recorded stuff with alot of <40Hz tones.

[macdaddy]

all i can say is that this is easy (for me) to do in samplitude (best $150 i have spent in a while), but damned if i didnt struggle with audacity...