Topic: Korg MR-1 and MR-1000 - News DSD Recorders announced at AES

[SClassical]

Yes you need to set the vol when you enter the REC level option after pressing the REC button. You set the L&R levels indivially. So it is not a 2 sec process.

[newblue]

The Owners Manual for the MR-1000 is finally up on the web.  This should answer some questions.

MR-1000 Owners Manual

here's the one for the MR-1

MR-1 Owners Manual

[MattH]

MR-1000
Interesting how you have to use TRS for line in and XLR for mic in. Also, the High and Low sensitivity switch apparently only affects line in. It switches between consumer and pro reference levels.

This seems different than most field recorders that have a switch between mic and line in. I hope this is a good sign for a very high quality mic pre.

[Nick's Picks]

me too

[newblue]

Alright I'm confused.

I understand that XLR has to be used with phantom power.  And mics are low output devices.

However, if running a seperate mic pre in front of this thing, is the manual saying it not take the XLR as line in, only TRS?

From reading this I still don't think that you have to use TRS as line in but as the manual states "you can use balanced or unbalanced 1/4" TRS phone jacks to make connections (for line in)".  But you can't use the TRS for mic in.

Am I thinking right on this or do you guys read this as TRS only for line in?

[Nick's Picks]

I would think either works.  balanced is balanced, no matter how its connected.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Thanks for the manual links..

Does the 1000 really not have a Hold function to lock everything??

It would be a huge drag if line-in is TRS only and not XLR.  I just don't see myself using (and making!) TRS cables for my pre-amps.

Be nice if it showed actual battery voltage rather than just a battery low LED.. Actual volts display is one of the more constantly used features on the 7xx.  From the manual it sounds like the korg does not differentiate between battery types like the r09 does.. So it could give premature low battery warnings with nimh.

[MattH]

I would think either works.  balanced is balanced, no matter how its connected.

XLR in will be like XLR in on an external mic preamp. TRS in will be like XLR in on a recorder that does not have a mic preamp like most studio recorders. This is distinctly different than a recorder that uses the same connections and a switch for line/mic in which might be a simple 20dB pad. The phantom switch will only affect XLR in and can be turned off if using an external phanton supply. Running a full line level signal into the XLR's will add far too much gain and result in serious clipping. Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?

I guess I will be buying some XLR-F -> TRS and TRS -> TRS cables soon to run my external pre's.

[MattH]

Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?

Absolutely.  But not via a cheezy-ass TRS connector!   A simple internal switch would have been Just Fine.

Anyone determined how much gain is available in line and mic modes?

Don't most soundboards and mixers have 1/4" TRS line input connectors and XLR connectors for mic in?

Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.

I don't think that is right but vicodin is preventing me from coming up with what seems right

[newblue]

Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?

Absolutely.  But not via a cheezy-ass TRS connector!   A simple internal switch would have been Just Fine.

Anyone determined how much gain is available in line and mic modes?

Don't most soundboards and mixers have 1/4" TRS line input connectors and XLR connectors for mic in?

Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.

I'm not sure that your thinking on this is correct but I'm not 100% sure either.  The spec sheet says -60dBu to -28dBu for XLR Line in (nominal) with -16dBu (maximum), not 28 to 60dBu.  That means at full trim the input gain would be -60dBu which is pretty low, so at high SPL you can increase the trim enough to get a handle on it.  I checked specs on the HD-P2 and it has something like ~-48dBu (max trim) to ~14dBu (min trim) and this is sufficient from what I gather.  The specs on the MR1000 don't distinguish between line-in and mic-in or the high and low gain setting switch.  I might email KORGs tech support and see if I can get a better answer on this.  Am I thinking correctly here???

[MattH]

Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?

Absolutely.  But not via a cheezy-ass TRS connector!   A simple internal switch would have been Just Fine.

Anyone determined how much gain is available in line and mic modes?

Don't most soundboards and mixers have 1/4" TRS line input connectors and XLR connectors for mic in?

Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.

I'm not sure that your thinking on this is correct but I'm not 100% sure either.  The spec sheet says -60dBu to -28dBu for XLR Line in (nominal) with -16dBu (maximum), not 28 to 60dBu.  That means at full trim the input gain would be -60dBu which is pretty low, so at high SPL you can increase the trim enough to get a handle on it.  I checked specs on the HD-P2 and it has something like ~-48dBu (max trim) to ~14dBu (min trim) and this is sufficient from what I gather.  The specs on the MR1000 don't distinguish between line-in and mic-in or the high and low gain setting switch.  I might email KORGs tech support and see if I can get a better answer on this.  Am I thinking correctly here???

It's fairly clear to me that XLR is mic in and TRS is line in, just like so many mixing boards out there. See the specs for each type of connector to confirm this for yourself.

INPUT L,R

Nominal level  -60 dBu...-28 dBu, XLR (balanced)
                   -26 dBu...+4 dBu, 1/4"TRS phone (balanced)
                   -16 dBV...-6 dBV, 1/4"TRS phone (unbalanced)

I think Maximum level specs refer to maximum input lever before overload, not the range of gain adjustment.

Also, according to the manual, the input sensitivity switch only impacts line in and not mic in.

[Todd R]

[INPUT L,R

Nominal level  -60 dBu...-28 dBu, XLR (balanced)
                   -26 dBu...+4 dBu, 1/4"TRS phone (balanced)
                   -16 dBV...-6 dBV, 1/4"TRS phone (unbalanced)

I think Maximum level specs refer to maximum input lever before overload, not the range of gain adjustment.

Also, according to the manual, the input sensitivity switch only impacts line in and not mic in.

Matt is right here, I think.  They are not giving the gain range available for those inputs, they are giving the min and max signal range for those inputs (presumably to not overload and to be able to reach 0dbFS without going over). Oops, these are nominal levels, not max levels

A dbu is a voltage reference, based on the ratio of the voltage level to a reference level of 0.775 volts (I forget the historical reasons for this).  A dbV is a voltage reference, with the voltage level referenced to 1volt.

So for the XLR example -60dbu = 20 * Log (input voltage/0.775volts).  So -60dbu = 0.775mV minimum input

The max XLR input level is -28 = 20 * Log (input voltage/0.775v) = 31mV

Based on -26dbu to +4dbu, the input range for the balanced TRS inputs works out to be 38.75mV to 1.6V (1600mV).


Bottom line, you'll need to use the TRS inputs for line-in.  Anyway, that aside, it's too bad it can't take a hotter signal line in.  The V3 puts out ~25dbu when running 0dbFS on the digital side, which is way more than this can take.  The MT can only take 3.2dbu max according to Guy Sonic, so this isn't too much more at max +4dbu.

Edit:  skip this -- these are nominal levels, see my post a few below regarding info on max levels.

[Colin Liston]

So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?

[Todd R]

So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?

Don't know, I haven't checked out the specs yet.  I just realized though, that max level of 31mv on the XLR inputs is really low, unless I'm screwing something up in my calculations.

My mics, and a lot of others have sensitivities of 14.5mV/Pascal, which is a sound level of 94db.  For each 6db increase in sound pressure, you'll double that as a mic signal.  So 100db SPL is 29mv signal coming from the mic, 106db is 58mv, 112db SPL is 116mv signal level. 

You'll easily get 112db SPLs at a concert, so I guess this means you won't be able to use this recorder without having a -20db mic pad engaged?