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Author Topic: The AKG Active Project - 2  (Read 64197 times)

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Offline thegreatgumbino

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #345 on: October 12, 2007, 09:30:03 PM »
Nice find. Now I'm wondering if these "chopped" right angle XLR's, that so many of us use with the 722's, are part of the RF problem. Wonder if that Neutrik comes in a right angle.

FWIW, I ran the AKG actives for year or so and never had any issues with the stubby RA's & 722.  I don't think that is the cause.  IMO, Neil's comments regarding the one direction wrapped shield is probably the culprit.
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Offline esteyes

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #346 on: October 12, 2007, 10:01:16 PM »
first, the EMC XLR is cool, but probably overkill in this arena. offstage environment is much less RF rich than onstage/sidestage what with all the wireless stuff going on these days. not to poo-poo it, the cost up is probably minimal and does provide extra insurance and it just might be very well worth it.

however, i bet that the people most likely to experience RF issues are those folks running something like the MK46 system. as correctly said by Freelunch, the signal travelling down the MK46 is unbalanced, something no good FOH or monitor engineer or recording engineer likes to see. at to that the fact that the signal, despite the FET boost, is still pretty small in magnitude. when you add in the non-optimum shielding provided by the original cable and add to that the possibility that some of that shielding may be compromised - read broken strands - then one can see why the umbilical system is more suseptible to interference. my 2 cents anyway.

one of the issues with replacement cable is the very low capacitance of the original cable. increased capacitance and long runs can work just like a low cut filter - something we all want to avoid. resistance is also an issue when replacing this application's cable. i looked long and hard when i searched for a more durable cable when i did the original replacement on my MK46's. i think i will look into other styles of cable during the course of this project. HOWEVER i believe the triaxial design is the best for this project as my current understanding extends. i think we just may have to accept the wear and tear issue here and plan for periodic cable replacement. this might give a push to the lemo terminated cable and adapters for the caps and bodies as previously proposed, but i do not believe any product i build will be assembled in a way that would preclude an end user w/ decent soldering skills from repairing their own cables. i have no desire to build something so proprietary that only i can fix it.

i know that many of you tape more than i do, maybe MUCH more these days, but i typically build all new XLR cables every two years. most sound companies do the same even tho the cable(s) may or may not exhibit any problems.... everything has a finite life and they cannot chance failures. how many of you do the same? so, from the industry standpoint, they would already have replacement schedules drawn up for the MK46's.

also, i believe the original purpose of the MK46 system was for permanent install situations like stage or orchestral with the benefit of the smaller profile of the CKxX caps only visible. in that scenario, the cables would likely remain "undisturbed" as compared to our setup/teardown, etc, etc and the possible wear issues we are discussing might never surface for users like that.

anyway, i will query a cable manufacturer at some point for the real engineering answers on the triax cable/shielding/durability/etc issues.

neil
Neil Sturtevant
San Marcos, CA
AKG 451's + CK1/CK8/CK9
AKG 460's + CK61/CK63 or A60M + CK1/CK8/CK9  or MK46/CK1X/CK8X
Sennheiser K3U + MKE-2, ME20, ME40, ME80, ME88
Sennheiser MKH 110/2 x2 + MKH 110/1 powered via custom battbox
Busman BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4
Shure FP33 or Sony DMX P01
Korg MR1000 or Sony M1
stealth: M1 > MKE-2/ME 20/ME40 in the hat
all cabling LINK (made in Germany) balanced or balanced miniature w/ Neutrik ends

making custom cables and serviceable (non-epoxy) ultraflush right angle cables plus other custom projects

Offline illconditioned

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #347 on: October 12, 2007, 10:07:25 PM »
first, the EMC XLR is cool, but probably overkill in this arena. offstage environment is much less RF rich than onstage/sidestage what with all the wireless stuff going on these days. not to poo-poo it, the cost up is probably minimal and does provide extra insurance and it just might be very well worth it.

however, i bet that the people most likely to experience RF issues are those folks running something like the MK46 system. as correctly said by Freelunch, the signal travelling down the MK46 is unbalanced, something no good FOH or monitor engineer or recording engineer likes to see. at to that the fact that the signal, despite the FET boost, is still pretty small in magnitude. when you add in the non-optimum shielding provided by the original cable and add to that the possibility that some of that shielding may be compromised - read broken strands - then one can see why the umbilical system is more suseptible to interference. my 2 cents anyway.

one of the issues with replacement cable is the very low capacitance of the original cable. increased capacitance and long runs can work just like a low cut filter - something we all want to avoid. resistance is also an issue when replacing this application's cable. i looked long and hard when i searched for a more durable cable when i did the original replacement on my MK46's. i think i will look into other styles of cable during the course of this project. HOWEVER i believe the triaxial design is the best for this project as my current understanding extends. i think we just may have to accept the wear and tear issue here and plan for periodic cable replacement. this might give a push to the lemo terminated cable and adapters for the caps and bodies as previously proposed, but i do not believe any product i build will be assembled in a way that would preclude an end user w/ decent soldering skills from repairing their own cables. i have no desire to build something so proprietary that only i can fix it.

i know that many of you tape more than i do, maybe MUCH more these days, but i typically build all new XLR cables every two years. most sound companies do the same even tho the cable(s) may or may not exhibit any problems.... everything has a finite life and they cannot chance failures. how many of you do the same? so, from the industry standpoint, they would already have replacement schedules drawn up for the MK46's.

also, i believe the original purpose of the MK46 system was for permanent install situations like stage or orchestral with the benefit of the smaller profile of the CKxX caps only visible. in that scenario, the cables would likely remain "undisturbed" as compared to our setup/teardown, etc, etc and the possible wear issues we are discussing might never surface for users like that.

anyway, i will query a cable manufacturer at some point for the real engineering answers on the triax cable/shielding/durability/etc issues.

neil

I don't think cable length/capacitance is a big issue here.  It is similar to running any mic cable, eg., AT853 run 50' (unbalanced) from mic to XLR phantom adapter.

The problem is the cable itself, and the foil shielding.  It should be braided (or lightly twisted, forget the name), as lavalier cable is.  So, any triaxial (or more conductor) lav type cable should work.  How about using star-quad even.  That Belden 1804a is pretty much indestructable.

Anyway, my best wishes for you on this project.  Even though I'm moving on to other mics (Beyerdynamic, etc), I'm excited to see this project move forward.

 Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Offline Todd R

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #348 on: October 13, 2007, 12:06:52 PM »
Todd.....can the cable that you used to make these extensions not work?

??? Sorry Tommy, I'm not understanding the question.

Ok, got you now.  I had forgot I had made those extension cables.  They used a 4-conductor (+sheild) mil-spec silver cable.  They could certainly work, but they are pretty thick and stiff compared to active cables (and white).

I built myself a couple sets of low profile mic cables using Canare L2B2AT cable, which is a small diameter 2-cond cable.  It is very thin and very flexible and uses some type of 100% shielding foil shield with drain wire.  I don't know if foil shields are usually shunned for our applications, but this wire is quite flexible and has been working great so far for me.  Then again, I don't know whether Canare makes a similar cable with more conductors or not.

I'm not sure about the shielding aspect, but the Belden 1804a is a nice cable for active cables.  Both my jklabs active cables and my current Milab active cables use the 1804a for their cable stock.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
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Offline rokpunk

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #349 on: October 13, 2007, 12:31:34 PM »
At AES last week, I spoke with the AKG national something-or-another (sales) and expressed a desire for an AKG cable to make the 460's/480's remoteable. He knew exactly what I was after, gave me his card, and told me to email about it. Not to say that AKG will actually produce this cable, but maybe this guy can plant a seed in R&D.
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again, your showing your cluelessness.


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Offline esteyes

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #350 on: October 13, 2007, 09:09:21 PM »
hell, AKG USA repair does not even own their own set of MK46 cables to test and repair their own product...

neil
Neil Sturtevant
San Marcos, CA
AKG 451's + CK1/CK8/CK9
AKG 460's + CK61/CK63 or A60M + CK1/CK8/CK9  or MK46/CK1X/CK8X
Sennheiser K3U + MKE-2, ME20, ME40, ME80, ME88
Sennheiser MKH 110/2 x2 + MKH 110/1 powered via custom battbox
Busman BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4
Shure FP33 or Sony DMX P01
Korg MR1000 or Sony M1
stealth: M1 > MKE-2/ME 20/ME40 in the hat
all cabling LINK (made in Germany) balanced or balanced miniature w/ Neutrik ends

making custom cables and serviceable (non-epoxy) ultraflush right angle cables plus other custom projects

stevetoney

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #351 on: October 13, 2007, 09:32:31 PM »
hell, AKG USA repair does not even own their own set of MK46 cables to test and repair their own product...

neil

Yeah, I'm sure it they were interested in developing a product, it would have been here by now...and of course it would be $1500. 

Go Neil Go!

Offline ts

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #352 on: October 15, 2007, 09:48:41 AM »
Nice find. Now I'm wondering if these "chopped" right angle XLR's, that so many of us use with the 722's, are part of the RF problem. Wonder if that Neutrik comes in a right angle.

FWIW, I ran the AKG actives for year or so and never had any issues with the stubby RA's & 722.  I don't think that is the cause.  IMO, Neil's comments regarding the one direction wrapped shield is probably the culprit.

Well, busman has my mk46 cables and a spool of 1804a. I'm hoping this solves the RF problem. I would also like to get the lemos replaced. Is that possible?
Beyerdynamic CK930>Sound Devices MixPre 6

Offline aberg

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #353 on: October 15, 2007, 09:54:34 AM »
Nice find. Now I'm wondering if these "chopped" right angle XLR's, that so many of us use with the 722's, are part of the RF problem. Wonder if that Neutrik comes in a right angle.

FWIW, I ran the AKG actives for year or so and never had any issues with the stubby RA's & 722.  I don't think that is the cause.  IMO, Neil's comments regarding the one direction wrapped shield is probably the culprit.

Well, busman has my mk46 cables and a spool of 1804a. I'm hoping this solves the RF problem. I would also like to get the lemos replaced. Is that possible?

Yup, definitely. I found a set of the lemos used on the cables. They're about $20 apeice but not too hard to track down.

Offline tfrench

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #354 on: October 30, 2007, 12:17:04 PM »
Bump, checking in....
-
Todd
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Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #355 on: October 30, 2007, 02:01:28 PM »
Someone start a new thread.

Offline willndmb

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Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

 

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