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Author Topic: "MY" DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s  (Read 4840 times)

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Offline Arni99

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"MY" DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« on: August 18, 2007, 08:11:19 AM »
I just tested both of my mics regarding sensitivity at a fixed gain-level on my Edirol R-09 recording the same song for about 30 seconds(intro of Michael Jackson´s "Billy Jean").

Adobe Audition showed 25dB less sensitivity for my DPA 4061´s compared to the MM-HLSC-1.

That´s really a lot...thought it might be 12dB difference but not 25dB?!

both mics where powered with my 12V SP-SPSB-9 battery box.
MIC-IN(low sens) on Edirol R-09 at gain 30 with MM-HLSC-1=>peaks where at 0db on the levelmeter.
Gain 30 with my DPA resulted in peaks at -25dB on the levelmeter.
Then I amplified the DPA waveform with +25dB and had the same high MM-HLSC-1-levels touching 0db on the levelmeter.

Now it´s clear why I needed to use MIC-IN(gain 20) instead of LINE-IN on the R09 when taping Uriah Heep  ;D!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 08:10:33 AM by Arni99 »
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Offline ilduclo

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2007, 09:35:35 AM »
but, not clear on why you might want to tape Uriah Heep!

Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2007, 10:05:10 AM »
but, not clear on why you might want to tape Uriah Heep!
;D it was 1 of many bands I was taping at a 1day festival ;).
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Offline firebaugh

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2007, 10:46:41 AM »
Uriah Heep makes much more sense than Michael Jacksons - Billy Jean

Exactly what I was thinking.  ;D
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Offline boojum

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2007, 10:48:41 AM »
Arni - what do the manufacturers' specs say about the different sensitivity of these mics??  That would yield the most useful info.  Tschuss.
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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2007, 10:52:01 AM »
The record, Thriller, happens to be one of the best mixed records, ever. Bruce Sweden, engineered, if I recall correctly. The material, however, is not the type of music I enjoy listening too.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2007, 10:59:32 AM »
Arni - what do the manufacturers' specs say about the different sensitivity of these mics??  That would yield the most useful info.  Tschuss.

DPA 4061:
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB:
6 mV/Pa; -44.5 dB re. 1 V/Pa


MM-HLSC-1:
Open Circuit Sensitivity: 8 mv/pa +/- 2.5db


25dB are a fact ;)...my DPA 4061 where modded to a single 1/8"(3.5mm) plug by Chris Church, hope Chris didn´t put his 4.7k resistor to my mics ...just kidding ;D!
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2007, 11:18:22 AM »
I understand your test results provided a difference of 25 dB, but I don't think that should be.  If the sensitivities are -6 mV/Pa for the 4061, and 8 mV/Pa for the MM-HLSC-1, then according to the following chart, that only accounts for a different of 2 dBu.  Now, I'm not nearly technical enough to follow why all this is the way it is, but if the above is correct then there's something else going on aside from the different mic sensitivities and you may want to find out what it is.  Or, quite possibly, I probably don't understand the following chart and you're getting the results you should.  Hopefully someone more technical will chime in.



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Offline rokpunk

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2007, 12:26:12 PM »
Uriah Heep makes much more sense than Michael Jacksons - Billy Jean

Christ, Thriller is, still to this day, one of the best produced albums of all time.
I don't care what you think of the music....the production is simply awesome.
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again, your showing your cluelessness.


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Offline DSatz

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2007, 12:29:49 PM »
Brian S, 6 mV/Pa and 8 mV/Pa are perfectly normal sensitivity values for condenser microphones, and you're reading that chart correctly; between 6 mV and 8 mV the difference is only 2.5 dB, not 25 dB! So something basic is going on which we haven't put our collective fingers on yet.

The original poster has a pair of each type of microphone, no? If the left and right microphones in each of his pairs match each other reasonably well, wouldn't it be a rather huge coincidence if some defect in both microphones was causing an identical 20+ dB change in their sensitivity? If such a thing was happening to only one microphone of the pair, I'm pretty sure he'd be aware of that and would mention it, no?

By any chance does either of these types of microphone come in different forms or models with different sensitivity ratings? Might he be using a powering arrangement or accessories with circuitry which either amplify or pad down the signals coming from the microphone capsules? If so, then perhaps in the particular arrangement or form or model that's being used, the sensitivity is different from the nominal values that were quoted here.

I think, for example, that some people on this board use "battery boxes" which also provide some voltage gain, like a preamp. If that type of circuitry is being used, the manufacturer's specifications go out the window.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 01:25:36 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2007, 12:37:53 PM »
yes i have a pair of DPA 4061´s and MM-HLSC-1`s as you can see in my signature at the bottom.

my DPA 4061 are not matched. there´s a difference of 4dB between left and right.
of course the MOD(3.5mm) is NOT DPA-alike and my 12V soundprofessionals-bbox neither ;).
my DPA mics need at least 5V for being powered properly.

Anytime I taped with these DPA´s in front(15-20m distance) of HUGE outdoor PA´s with lots of soundpressure I HAD to use MIC-IN as I NEVER could reach the -12 to -6dB on the levelmeter when using line-in.
On mic-in(sens low) with gain 20-23 all is fine though for loud amplified shows.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 12:51:08 PM by Arni99 »
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2007, 12:55:11 PM »
Arni - what do the manufacturers' specs say about the different sensitivity of these mics??  That would yield the most useful info.  Tschuss.

DPA 4061:
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB:
6 mV/Pa; -44.5 dB re. 1 V/Pa


MM-HLSC-1:
Open Circuit Sensitivity: 8 mv/pa +/- 2.5db


25dB are a fact ;)...my DPA 4061 where modded to a single 1/8"(3.5mm) plug by Chris Church, hope Chris didn´t put his 4.7k resistor to my mics ...just kidding ;D!


Where did you purchase these mics? I tested a bunch of mics for a fellow user here at T.S and some of them were WAY off spec. I dont remember terminating any other DPA mics for anyone else accept him. So you must have got a set from the same person. I gave him all the info on the mics as far as the sensitivity of each pair he had sent me over 7 pairs and I paired them as best I could. I do remember one pair being really bad, I am not trying to stir up any shit here, I just dont want people thinking I did some bad work. When all I did for this guy was test his mics and give him matched pairs as close as possible based on the mics this user provided me.

Chris
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Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2007, 12:57:01 PM »
Arni - what do the manufacturers' specs say about the different sensitivity of these mics??  That would yield the most useful info.  Tschuss.

DPA 4061:
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB:
6 mV/Pa; -44.5 dB re. 1 V/Pa


MM-HLSC-1:
Open Circuit Sensitivity: 8 mv/pa +/- 2.5db


25dB are a fact ;)...my DPA 4061 where modded to a single 1/8"(3.5mm) plug by Chris Church, hope Chris didn´t put his 4.7k resistor to my mics ...just kidding ;D!


Where did you purchase these mics? I tested a bunch of mics for a fellow user here at T.S and some of them were WAY off spec. I dont remember terminating any other DPA mics for anyone else accept him. So you must have got a set from the same person. I gave him all the info on the mics as far as the sensitivity of each pair he had sent me over 7 pairs and I paired them as best I could. I do remember one pair being really bad, I am not trying to stir up any shit here, I just dont want people thinking I did some bad work. When all I did for this guy was test his mics and give him matched pairs as close as possible based on the mics this user provided me.

Chris

It´s "redbooks" DPA 4061 which you modded to 3.5mm.
He told me he sent them to you for cleaning and measuring and he also told me you modded them to 3.5mm.

-34db/-38db was written on a blue sticker when I got the mics....4db difference.
you remember chris?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 12:58:57 PM by Arni99 »
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Offline dactylus

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2007, 01:07:28 PM »

Is there anyone here in the USA that will also "professionally test" the sensitivity of pairs of dpa 4061's besides dpa - I may check in with dpa...  Just curious how closely matched my pair is.

What should you expect to pay for a service like this?

 ::)


Arni - what do the manufacturers' specs say about the different sensitivity of these mics??  That would yield the most useful info.  Tschuss.

DPA 4061:
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB:
6 mV/Pa; -44.5 dB re. 1 V/Pa


MM-HLSC-1:
Open Circuit Sensitivity: 8 mv/pa +/- 2.5db


25dB are a fact ;)...my DPA 4061 where modded to a single 1/8"(3.5mm) plug by Chris Church, hope Chris didn´t put his 4.7k resistor to my mics ...just kidding ;D!


Where did you purchase these mics? I tested a bunch of mics for a fellow user here at T.S and some of them were WAY off spec. I dont remember terminating any other DPA mics for anyone else accept him. So you must have got a set from the same person. I gave him all the info on the mics as far as the sensitivity of each pair he had sent me over 7 pairs and I paired them as best I could. I do remember one pair being really bad, I am not trying to stir up any shit here, I just dont want people thinking I did some bad work. When all I did for this guy was test his mics and give him matched pairs as close as possible based on the mics this user provided me.

Chris

hot licks > microphones > recorder



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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2007, 01:11:06 PM »

Is there anyone here in the USA that will also "professionally test" the sensitivity of pairs of dpa 4061's besides dpa - I may check in with dpa...  Just curious how closely matched my pair is.

What should you expect to pay for a service like this?

 ::)


Arni - what do the manufacturers' specs say about the different sensitivity of these mics??  That would yield the most useful info.  Tschuss.

DPA 4061:
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB:
6 mV/Pa; -44.5 dB re. 1 V/Pa


MM-HLSC-1:
Open Circuit Sensitivity: 8 mv/pa +/- 2.5db


25dB are a fact ;)...my DPA 4061 where modded to a single 1/8"(3.5mm) plug by Chris Church, hope Chris didn´t put his 4.7k resistor to my mics ...just kidding ;D!


Where did you purchase these mics? I tested a bunch of mics for a fellow user here at T.S and some of them were WAY off spec. I dont remember terminating any other DPA mics for anyone else accept him. So you must have got a set from the same person. I gave him all the info on the mics as far as the sensitivity of each pair he had sent me over 7 pairs and I paired them as best I could. I do remember one pair being really bad, I am not trying to stir up any shit here, I just dont want people thinking I did some bad work. When all I did for this guy was test his mics and give him matched pairs as close as possible based on the mics this user provided me.

Chris


In the USA I would send them to DPA... There are companies that can test your mics and provide frequency plots but nobody has the gear DPA does to test there own mics. They have the same gear that the DPA factory in Denmark has. Its a state of the art facility.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2007, 01:13:49 PM »
Arni - what do the manufacturers' specs say about the different sensitivity of these mics??  That would yield the most useful info.  Tschuss.

DPA 4061:
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB:
6 mV/Pa; -44.5 dB re. 1 V/Pa


MM-HLSC-1:
Open Circuit Sensitivity: 8 mv/pa +/- 2.5db


25dB are a fact ;)...my DPA 4061 where modded to a single 1/8"(3.5mm) plug by Chris Church, hope Chris didn´t put his 4.7k resistor to my mics ...just kidding ;D!


Where did you purchase these mics? I tested a bunch of mics for a fellow user here at T.S and some of them were WAY off spec. I dont remember terminating any other DPA mics for anyone else accept him. So you must have got a set from the same person. I gave him all the info on the mics as far as the sensitivity of each pair he had sent me over 7 pairs and I paired them as best I could. I do remember one pair being really bad, I am not trying to stir up any shit here, I just dont want people thinking I did some bad work. When all I did for this guy was test his mics and give him matched pairs as close as possible based on the mics this user provided me.

Chris

It´s "redbooks" DPA 4061 which you modded to 3.5mm.
He told me he sent them to you for cleaning and measuring and he also told me you modded them to 3.5mm.

-34db/-38db was written on a blue sticker when I got the mics....4db difference.
you remember chris?


Then they are 4db apart.. The sensitivity was not as good as some of the others I measured. That was measured at 1k with a 9 volt battery source into my computer audio interface with a 10k input impedance.
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Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2007, 01:17:37 PM »
yeah chris, i know they are 4db apart, BUT where does the very low sensitivity come from?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2007, 01:49:02 PM »
yeah chris, i know they are 4db apart, BUT where does the very low sensitivity come from?


AGE. And sweat. I would use a 1k tone and measure them both remember that your trying to compair a directional mic with a omni mic this test must be done with one speaker on axis no more then 4 inches away from a tweeter. To be accurate. make sure that each mic is held in the exact same position for the test. DO not use music as a source to compair microphone sensitivity especially when they have different polar patterns..
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Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2007, 02:09:31 PM »
Bruce Myers/DPA thoughts on ebay/broadway mics:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71816.msg966674.html#msg966674
thx moke....redbook told me these mics were used at czech TV stations....that might be the reason for their insensivity......i payed 450$ for both mics.....
at least on mic-in they sound great for amplified rock shows. ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 02:15:31 PM by Arni99 »
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Offline ilduclo

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2007, 03:57:40 PM »
I had good luck here with the Broadway sellers, my dpa 4061's are faily well matched and have done great recordings for 2 years after purchase.

Offline nickee

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2007, 07:05:22 PM »
I also own a pair of MM-HLSC-1 as well as 4061's and I have experienced the same thing. My DPA's are from Core Sound so they were up to spec when I got them. The output from the MM-HLSC-1s are way higher than any other mic I have run. They run so hot that they are impossible to use with a AD-20 for any normally loud show without an attenuator cable. Using a -20db attenuator cable brings the output in the same ball park as the DPA's.

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 09:25:11 AM »
Bruce Myers/DPA thoughts on ebay/broadway mics:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71816.msg966674.html#msg966674

Eggs-actly - I bought my 4061's NEW from Frank at Cascade Media...

« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 09:27:36 AM by dactylus »
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Offline bluntforcetrauma

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 12:03:49 PM »
i run the dpa 4061 and the mma 6000, i dont know if it makes a difference between battery box and pre amp, but I aslo have a increased resistor in edirol r-09 for increased gain, so if i were to have my gain at 30 on edirol r-09 then i would need to put the mma 6000 on only about 2db as i would clip the sound

i am trying to record tonight

are the senn's cardoid pattern?

wouldnt that make soem difference in how the study shold be conducted as far as polar patterns

to me the DPA recordings with 4061 is cleaner( especially when using the mma6000) and fuller than with the senns when listening to a recording

what do other people think about the 2 in performance sound?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:10:48 PM by bluntforcetrauma »

Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2007, 12:23:39 PM »
yes the senn´s are cardioids....i just wanted to say I can´t use my DPA 4061´s+12V bbox on line-in of the edirol  r09 even at full gain.... as I don´t get enough signal at loud amplified shows ;).
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 01:00:00 PM by Arni99 »
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2nd: iPhone 5 + "Rode iXY" microphone/"Zoom IQ5" microphone

Offline dactylus

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2007, 12:48:45 PM »
yes the senn´s are cardioids....i just wanted to say I can´t use my DPA 4061´s+12 bbox on line-in of the edirol  r09 even at full gain.... as I don´t get enough signal at loud amplified shows ;).



The DPA mma6000 amplifier is a wonderful piece of gear to have when running the dpa mini mics!! I don't use my mt2496 for gain control whatsoever - I totally use the mma6000 and have no problem whatsoever with having enough gain running line in...  I would suggest purchasing the mma6000 if you plan on keeping the dpa mics.

 :)
 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:50:33 PM by dactylus »
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Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2007, 12:58:19 PM »
yes the senn´s are cardioids....i just wanted to say I can´t use my DPA 4061´s+12 bbox on line-in of the edirol  r09 even at full gain.... as I don´t get enough signal at loud amplified shows ;).



The DPA mma6000 amplifier is a wonderful piece of gear to have when running the dpa mini mics!! I don't use my mt2496 for gain control whatsoever - I totally use the mma6000 and have no problem whatsoever with having enough gain running line in...  I would suggest purchasing the mma6000 if you plan on keeping the dpa mics.

 :)
 

12.3x8.5x3.5cm(4.8 x 3.3 x 1.4") are a bit large for passing securities even when hidden at my special place ;).
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 01:01:40 PM by Arni99 »
1st: SONY PCM-M10 + DPA 4060's + DPA MPS 6030 power supply (microdot)
2nd: iPhone 5 + "Rode iXY" microphone/"Zoom IQ5" microphone

Offline DaveG73

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2007, 01:11:06 PM »
yes the senn´s are cardioids....i just wanted to say I can´t use my DPA 4061´s+12 bbox on line-in of the edirol  r09 even at full gain.... as I don´t get enough signal at loud amplified shows ;).



The DPA mma6000 amplifier is a wonderful piece of gear to have when running the dpa mini mics!! I don't use my mt2496 for gain control whatsoever - I totally use the mma6000 and have no problem whatsoever with having enough gain running line in...  I would suggest purchasing the mma6000 if you plan on keeping the dpa mics.

 :)
 

12.3x8.5x3.5cm(4.8 x 3.3 x 1.4") are a bit large for passing securities even when hidden at my special place ;).


Really???

I would have no problems.  :bawling:
Always Taping Under The Influence.

I was under the assumption that as a taper, we're all geeks?  I just thought it went with the territory?

Offline dactylus

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2007, 01:49:26 PM »
yes the senn´s are cardioids....i just wanted to say I can´t use my DPA 4061´s+12 bbox on line-in of the edirol  r09 even at full gain.... as I don´t get enough signal at loud amplified shows ;).



The DPA mma6000 amplifier is a wonderful piece of gear to have when running the dpa mini mics!! I don't use my mt2496 for gain control whatsoever - I totally use the mma6000 and have no problem whatsoever with having enough gain running line in...  I would suggest purchasing the mma6000 if you plan on keeping the dpa mics.

 :)
 

12.3x8.5x3.5cm(4.8 x 3.3 x 1.4") are a bit large for passing securities even when hidden at my special place ;).


Not true - I manage it with no problem...  Maybe size really does matter.   :yack: :yack:

 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 01:53:37 PM by dactylus »
hot licks > microphones > recorder



...ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey...

Offline ballerusk

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2007, 02:09:01 PM »
I used to have Church Audio's preamp for the 4061s and that is not much bigger than an Edirol R-09 and it should do the job just as good as DPA's own preamp. How about those who stealth with a JB3, that thing is big and heavy, in contrast to the R-09/iRiver/MD-recorders!  :P
Microphones: Schoeps MK41s > Schoeps CMRs
Preamp: Naiant Tinybox
Recorder: Sony M10

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Offline Arni99

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Re: DPA 4061´s are 25dB LESS sensitive than MM-HLSC-1´s
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2007, 02:18:13 PM »
my mics a 1/8" single plug terminated, maybe I´ll try them with my mm-preamp in 2 weeks.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 08:15:08 AM by Arni99 »
1st: SONY PCM-M10 + DPA 4060's + DPA MPS 6030 power supply (microdot)
2nd: iPhone 5 + "Rode iXY" microphone/"Zoom IQ5" microphone

 

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