Topic: Another topic begging for mic advice.. sorry

[ReverbReverse]

Hi, I've been recording concerts for about a year or so with a mz rh1 and a pair of Core Sound "binaurals" - thinking I would almost always be at the very front, i was hoping for the crowd noise and chatter to be minimal. But even this way, there's still way too much of it to my taste, and I guess it is time I should "upgrade" to cardioids (I am aware of the possible problems arising from the use of cards from that much up close.)

I was kind of having my eyes on the soundprofessionals SP-CMC-4U (which would be pretty much in my budget) but after reading a bit around here, I came across several posts about the MM-HLSC-1 that make them look very attractive to me. A problem I have been having with the CSB was that, even if I was using the bass roll-off ALL THE TIME, I would always end with too much of it, and the upper mids and trebles would inevitably get so to speak drowned behind it - not to the point that re-equalizing it would not make it kind of satisfactory, but still. I guess that's where I have to say that I am a bit of a guitar freak :-s so I turn especially frustrated if that frequency range doesn't turn out nice.

So.. to recap, it would have to be cardioid mics, for stealth recording, and I would want to stay under or about the bar of 500$ - for which I would need the mics, some power supply (having the mics running on the power of the recorder freaks me out) and potentially a roll-off (in case I need to get it lower than the mics themselves would..) Also, I would be recording in venues ranging from an "arena" size to pretty small clubs.. would I need several power supplies or whatnots to make it compatible to these different surroundings?

Also do i *need* a preamp (it seems that the ST 9100 is a favourite around here) ? I'm clueless about these, since I never used one..


Thank you A LOT for any sort of advice in advance

[boojum]

I have both of the mics you are considering and feed and RH1 with them.  In short, the 4U is "warmer" with more bass.  I do not use a pre-amp.  I use a battery box and the pre-amp in the RH1.   It works just fine and I have gotten some very good recordings that way.  You can, too.

Cheers

[darktrain]

If you are doing Rock/metal shows from close up the soundprofessionals SP-CMC-4U(at853) will need to be modified, they can't handle the higher spl at close range, you could have mr. church do his 4.7 low sens mod to them or do it yourself, look around the threads there is talk and pics about it. I learned this leason the hard way. Recorded close up and ran into some issues with the mics limitations. I have the MM-HLSC's and those will basically take anything you can throw at them and actually do better the closer you are to the source...IMO, they can be a little light on base if you get to far fro mthe source.

[Belexes]

Agreed with Darktrain's thoughts on the MM-HLSC-1's.  They can take the high SPL's, so if rock/metal is your recording source, those may work better for you for those situations.  I record mainly rock concerts, so they were right up my alley, but I am also a gear slut with the 943's and 853's as well. 

ST-9100 is primo for the money spent.  I have samples of the MM > ST-9100 in this thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92008.0.html

[ninjadave]

when you run the MM's with the 9100 into the R9, are you running that 2 wire power (3.5mm) and what are you setting your levels at (R9 at 8 mic in, line in?)...ie. all the gain coming from the preamp?

since these MM are so hot, i was curious how you run the preamp with it since that will just add to the signal unless you are actually running the preamp with -db.....below 11 o clock i read i think (11a is the 0 db gain spot on the 9100??).

thanks for any info...
ninja.

[Ekib]

I have been using the MM highline's for a while and I decided to sell them since they were too boomy and too much binaural alike ( even when they are card's ). They may work for different music but I got tired of having to use an equalizer everytime to mix the recordings the way I like it.
I am a happy Core-sound cardioid user since 1998 ( the $ 250 version , not the cheap set ) and I don't think I'll ever change to something else. They get the job done , no matter under which conditions. Why don't you consider trying them ? They have a return policy so if you don't like them you can return them ! And since you are a Core-sound user you probably don't have to order the batterybox since it will work on the CSCD aswell. That saves you $ 50. But you can ask Len for the best advice.

[Belexes]

I run the 2 wire into line-in with R-09 at 8 (or now maybe 13 since we don't really have a straight answer from Roland) and get any gain needed from the pre-amp.  I wouldn't run the pre at less than 11:00 since that is just attenuation and you could just use a BB then and lower the gain on the R-09.

I have had more than one set of CS mics shit the bed so I can't recommend them, but your mileage may vary. 

I'm recording a local band tomorrow night 2-3 sets.  I might bring my 853's and MM's do a comparison.

[ReverbReverse]

Thanks for all the advice, guys, and yeah, it would mainly be  electric rock sets. Although the level of "loud" may vary, say, depending on the size of the venue, the PAs and whatnot, i'm sure i don't want the mics to be too sensitive (and the amount of noise they produce wouldn't be the most relevant parameter either..) So i think, thanks to you advice, that I'd rather go for the MM than the other ones..

One thing i don't get.. Boojum and Belexes.. is the with or without the 9100 a matter of personal taste, or is it because the preamp on the R09 really requires an external preamp ? It seems many people use it, while a lot of RH1 users (it seems) go without any external preamp  ?

And Ekib.. i'm pretty much considering the CS cards.. actually I was about to buy them without more thought (and to send Len my binaurals to have them fixed..) and then got aware that if there were other options, i might as well check them before. I know about their return policy, but since I live across the pond, it's not that unexpensive in the end either.. and again I've had this issue with the connections so I wouldn't mind changing providers..

I don't mind re-eq-ing the recordings - it's just that I want to get rid of the crowd noise (and that spells cards) and that if possible I'd have as much definition as possible above, say 100 Hz (and I am NOT getting that from the CSB, even with the roll-off.)

Would anyone get the idea that the cardioids by CS would be less boomy than their binaurals then ?

[Belexes]

The 9100 doesn't require an external pre, you could use the internal and may not notice that much of a difference.  Personally, I think my recordings have improved with the 9100, so my day of not using a pre are long gone.

[ReverbReverse]

The 9100 doesn't require an external pre, you could use the internal and may not notice that much of a difference.  Personally, I think my recordings have improved with the 9100, so my day of not using a pre are long gone.

Sorry.. are you meaning "the RH1 doesn't require an external pre" or am i mixing everything up now ?

(and willndmb I'm trying to reply to you, but there's something going wrong with the captchas I think :/)

[Ekib]

And Ekib.. i'm pretty much considering the CS cards.. actually I was about to buy them without more thought (and to send Len my binaurals to have them fixed..) and then got aware that if there were other options, i might as well check them before. I know about their return policy, but since I live across the pond, it's not that unexpensive in the end either.. and again I've had this issue with the connections so I wouldn't mind changing providers..

I don't mind re-eq-ing the recordings - it's just that I want to get rid of the crowd noise (and that spells cards) and that if possible I'd have as much definition as possible above, say 100 Hz (and I am NOT getting that from the CSB, even with the roll-off.)

Would anyone get the idea that the cardioids by CS would be less boomy than their binaurals then ?

I don't actually know the CS Binaurals but any binaural I have heard is boomy.
I find the CSCD crisp and clear...razorsharp. I love that mic.
What I like best is I hardly have to use an equalizer...just a little extra treble sometimes.
I have to say I am a die hard CSCD user...

About the crowdnoise...it will be less with card's for sure but you can't totally exclude a very noisy and talkative neighbour either. But card's are a better choice than binaura;s in the perspective.
I have had people talking very loud right next to me during a concert and I thought my recording would be entirely ruined and it wasn't as bad as I thought. As long as you make sure someone is not talking right into your mic ( which is very unlikely to happen since they would have to turn around and no one does that during a gig ) the result is pretty good with card's. It surely is better than with binaurals.

I really don't mind sending you a minidisc with some examples of both the MM highline and CSCD. I can also include some samples of crowdnoise ( where people were talking really loud and obnoxious ). Sent me a PM and we can work something out !

I am using the MZ RH1 also. I am very pleased with it.

[dimm0k]

ReverbReverse, just curious if you have tried cardioids up close yet?  I'm debating whether to do that or not for an upcoming show and won't really have any practice runs...

[Ekib]

ReverbReverse, just curious if you have tried cardioids up close yet?  I'm debating whether to do that or not for an upcoming show and won't really have any practice runs...

I know you were refering the question to someone else but I have been standing very close to the stage / PA with my CSCD's. No problem at all. I think the closer you are the better >>> more direct ( not for every venue though ). Offcourse you have to make sure to wear some good earplugs

[dimm0k]

Ekib, any tips on your setup that accounted for the good recording while up close?

[Ekib]

Ekib, any tips on your setup that accounted for the good recording while up close?

I always make sure when I record up front I stand either on the left of the right side near the PA. There is a risk when the live sound is mixed  stereo. But mostly gigs aren't mixed stereo that much ( otherwise half the crowd wouldn't half a good sound ). I usually stand like 3 meters/yards from the PA . I am trying to get a position a little above the crowd . If I can't stand on the side in an elevated position I usually end up standing in the middle of the crowd. Many people here recommend standing next to the mixing desk but I usually feel the Mixing desk is too far away to get a good recording sound. It all depends on what kind of gig I am attending also where I am going to stand. If it's a thrash type of metal gig I usually stand further away. There is no point trying to record in the pit. But with other types of music , and if the crowd behaves better , you can usually stand safer closer to the stage/PA.

Offcourse and this is needless to say , you have to make sure your recording settings are set to low / -20 DB. This may be obvious to say but when I started recording recording I had no clue about that. If you do that and have good quality mic's you should be able to get a good direct recording.