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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Basic checklist for my first recording?
« on: May 02, 2013, 12:12:08 PM »
Hello TSers. Self-editing what I type isn't my forté, so grab a cup of coffee if you're mildly interested.

What
I've been granted permission to record a high school's orchestra concert. I'm doing this mainly for my own learning and to hopefully provide the kids, or at least the director, with a decent recording. I'll likely burn him a CD but I'm hoping he'll let me post to archive.org or somewhere. His only stipulation was a reminder for there not to be any money changing hands for the recordings (didn't plan on that anyway) so that the school wouldn't need to buy a mechanical copyright license. Hopefully online sharing isn't viewed the same way.

All of this is on short notice and I've scrambled to put together equipment on a budget so low it might make you wince. The last time I did anything like this was when I was in jr. high a thousand years ago using the school's equipment -- two SM57s (or equivalent) into a TC-377. If using 4 mics for the choir's SATB sections a Shure M68FC would have been dusted off.

Mics
I found two dirt cheap, used Behringer B-5s. One has arrived, looks new and tests good for both capsules. Although I don't anticipate audience noise being much of an issue I'm intending to use the cardioid capsules, not omnis. The other mic should just make my deadline next week. If it doesn't, I'll have to buy two mics locally on very short notice in order to do this show. That would kill my finances for the month; I might just record mono if that happens ...

Stereo bar
I like the AEA bar's protractor markings. I'll never be able to afford their mics, but this seems like a fun little splurge.

Location
I attended a concert last week there. I'd say the stage is "typical high school stage size" (a dedicated auditorium; this isn't the cafeteria or gymnasium) but I neglected to measure anything. Mics will be at stage lip, but not on the stage.

I told the director/conductor/teacher my goal was to position one stand on the floor, up fairly high, between front row and the stage, but as close to the stage as possible and he's cool with that. There's a generous 4' or 5' of floor space there.

I bought one of Adorama's house-brand light stands (Flashpoint 13') -- at $40 and with a reversible, threaded post up top (not just a stud) it seemed like a big bang for my buck. It's arrived and works fine. I bought a wing nut and some washers to secure the AEA mic bar to the stand.

If for any reason I'm forced to scrap the light stand idea and use a short mic stand (which I lack, but the school surely has ...) I'll secure the AEA bar with a spare mic clip.

I'll extend the Flashpoint up as much as I dare and presumably angle the mics downward to mid stage depth --- rear-seated players won't be on platforms. I will have no sound check for any of this and of course be gain-riding the first song somewhat.

The biggest issue I anticipate is HVAC noise (unless someone doesn't see my obnoxiously-colored sandbags for the light stand!). When I was there a week ago for their jazz band concert, I sat about 5 rows back from the front and the sound of air rushing out from the ceiling's HVAC (above the stage, no less) was often prominent. I'll ask that it be "turned off" or at least the t-stat be adjusted. (yeah, right) It's a decent auditorium but somebody forgot to tell the designers it's not necessary to have an HVAC produce gale force winds to cool down any size room.

Cables
I have two 100' lengths of bulk Canare L-4E6S on the way. I'll be way off to the side, or backstage and "shouldn't" need 100', but as these will be my only cables that's what I'll bring, unless the Canare don't make deadline and I have to solder my Neutriks to that big pile of CAT5 I have ...

Preamp + ADC
tc electronic Impact Twin. Tested briefly with the lone B-5, playing loud music from my stereo, they seems to like each other well enough although I keep forgetting to look up impedance specs (does that matter for condensers?)

Recorder
Late 2008 MacBook Pro running Amadeus Pro. I've owned this for several years but have never recorded with it. The Impact Twin can provide 24/192 but I'll stick to 24/96 here and have made some test recordings.

Other
gaffer tape
Monoprice closed-back headphones
water bottle
empty but foam-lined Gator GR-4L "suitcase" to toss stuff in.

Wish me good luck!

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2013, 02:55:01 PM »
Best of luck bro! Sounds like you know exactly what you need to do!
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Offline Since85

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 08:13:30 PM »
Good luck.

I would also recommend bringing the A.C. power supply for your computer, since you are recording onto it.

Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 10:20:31 PM »
Thanks, that reminds me! I have a long outdoor-style extension cord I should bring, with splitter.

If I could afford to do so, I'd buy a replacement battery for the laptop because its original one only holds about a 40 minute charge now. So yeah, I don't even move it around inside the house anymore without A/C power.

Also, tc electronic says the Impact Twin, because it connects via FireWire 400, can run from just the laptop (FireWire 400 can supply 12v) but I've always used it with its wall wart power supply.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2013, 03:33:58 AM »

All of this is on short notice and I've scrambled to put together equipment on a budget so low it might make you wince. The last time I did anything like this was when I was in jr. high a thousand years ago using the school's equipment -- two SM57s (or equivalent) into a TC-377.

One could in fact unintentionally do a lot worse than two SM57's...  I know whole albums that have been recorded on those (and sound very good).  Just make sure you got real ones and not the more prevalent counterfeits. 

Good luck. 
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Offline sacchini

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2013, 03:36:29 AM »
Thanks, that reminds me! I have a long outdoor-style extension cord I should bring, with splitter.

If I could afford to do so, I'd buy a replacement battery for the laptop because its original one only holds about a 40 minute charge now. So yeah, I don't even move it around inside the house anymore without A/C power.

Also, tc electronic says the Impact Twin, because it connects via FireWire 400, can run from just the laptop (FireWire 400 can supply 12v) but I've always used it with its wall wart power supply.
If you run the Impact Twin from the laptop you will not encounter any problem in case someone run through the extension cord unplugging A/C power, thanks to notebook battery.
About Murphy Law...

Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2013, 05:17:25 PM »
Another good point. The Impact Twin can be run as a standalone thing (not that I think I ever would, and I think resolution would be limited to 16/44) but then I'd just need another interface for the laptop, which this box already is.

Most of my goodies have arrived ... waiting on the cables.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2013, 05:44:51 PM »
I you do manage control over the HVAC, crank it down cold as early as you can before-hand so it is as chilly as possible before the room fills with walking radiators when you turn it down or off just before the performance. 

But as that isn't likely, getting your mic position up high and angled down at the stage may help by orienting the less sensitive region of the cardioid patterns towards the air woosh noise from the ceiling vent.

You didn't mention what stereo mic configuration you plan to use.  I'd suggest ORTF as a good starting point from that location.
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2013, 08:49:54 PM »
Yes Gutbucket, you have the idea I was going with regarding aiming. ORTF and using the mics' cardioid capsules is also in the plan. I'll have to eyeball it best I can ahead of time since I don't expect a "sound-check" to happen.

Another reason to angle down is to maybe reduce some potential slap-echo that will probably come from the back of the stage where hard/flat acoustic shells are. You all know the type, they look like the ones on the left here: http://blackcatmusicblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/legacy-shells-help-transform-acoustics.html

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2013, 05:04:06 PM »
Yes ORTF that close should work pretty well. My first DAT recording was Phish Cleveland 12/5/97 with ONE Shure SM57>Sony D8 ;)
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Offline earmonger

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 06:42:14 PM »

 I'll likely burn him a CD but I'm hoping he'll let me post to archive.org or somewhere. His only stipulation was a reminder for there not to be any money changing hands for the recordings (didn't plan on that anyway) so that the school wouldn't need to buy a mechanical copyright license. Hopefully online sharing isn't viewed the same way.


I don't want to be a buzzkill, and in the real world the high school probably doesn't have to worry.  I'm not a lawyer, but apparently  the letter of the copyright law doesn't distinguish between whether recordings are sold or given away.  Here's a long link--hop down to Simple Rule #2.

http://www.musicforall.org/resources/copyright/the-copyright-monster

According to this thread,  which seems especially knowledgeable down near the end, a mechanical license (to record the copyrighted music)  would probably run a few hundred dollars. I would guess that the school is aware of licensing, since the director brought this up in the first place; hope they have paid their performance license.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/541620-school-recordings-legal-issues.html

Practically speaking, you can probably distribute some CDs without the mechanical license because publishers have bigger things for their lawyers to enforce than the royalties from CDs for band members. But you might have to reconsider archive.org., or at last make sure that the recording isn't traceable back to the particular high school.

Or the group could play all public domain stuff...Beethoven hasn't sued anyone in years.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:24:38 PM by earmonger »

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 03:25:36 PM »

All of this is on short notice and I've scrambled to put together equipment on a budget so low it might make you wince. The last time I did anything like this was when I was in jr. high a thousand years ago using the school's equipment -- two SM57s (or equivalent) into a TC-377.

One could in fact unintentionally do a lot worse than two SM57's...  I know whole albums that have been recorded on those (and sound very good).  Just make sure you got real ones and not the more prevalent counterfeits. 

Good luck.

Bill Whithers first LP 'Just as I am' (Ain’t No Sunshine was the hit) was recorded with all Shure 546s, the precursor to the SM57.
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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2013, 04:16:56 PM »
Got a link to your first recording ???
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
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Offline Phil Zone

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2013, 08:16:29 PM »
That sounds great, and very prepared! More than I ever bring
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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2013, 03:42:06 PM »
Just coming back to this thread. The recording turned out well despite HVAC roar and one of the B-5s developing a buzz. Both issues were partly excised in software later. I'd just as soon get another pair of something else relatively inexpensive but that's a subject for elsewhere.

F.O.Bean: Nope, although I did suggest posting to LMA without objection. I only made a few CDs for the band director. Oh, and one for the harpist's mom who whined during setup my mic stand might be in the way of her video despite the obvious fact she had the freedom to make a decent video from any location, whereas I didn't have the same opportunity by putting mics just any 'ol place. And "Yes" was the answer to her question when she asked if the band director knew what I was doing. I told him about it later and he laughed.

And thank you earmonger. Yes, good links there. The mechanical license is a weird one. My understanding is that it's tied to distribution, not recording per se, but that you can't effectively record without someone (even if it's just the recordist) listening later, so there's your distribution ... I understand "CYA" but if a band gives me permission and I don't distribute publicly I think I'd feel OK which is to say, "safe." And I now understand that doing the work for free means nothing.

I have potential opportunities coming up to record a university ensemble, a professional big band and more high school shows. All of these would be permission granted/non-stealth with the intention of helping to promote their efforts.

Ideally, I think live recordings could/should be used for promotion towards getting people involved and going to shows be they high school or professional bands. What's frustrating is that the moment you post the shows online, copyright treats that the same as if you were doing it to make a buck on the recording and not the unique performance. There has to be a middle ground there beyond 30-second music clips.

Here was the stand with mics. Had them aimed a little too far down perhaps but it was OK. I was stationed stage-right out of view. The only cables I have are 100' and way too long here.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/181646/EHS%20mics.JPG

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2013, 06:19:47 PM »
http://musiced.nafme.org/resources/copyright-center/copyright-law-what-music-teachers-need-to-know/

1 archival copy for the teacher is apparently permitted. 

The actual fees for making a recording for the students aren't terribly expensive, but it can be extremely time intensive to track down the copyright holders to get permissions. 

 

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2013, 06:25:58 PM »
What's frustrating is that the moment you post the shows online, copyright treats that the same as if you were doing it to make a buck on the recording and not the unique performance. There has to be a middle ground there beyond 30-second music clips.

I call bullshit.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2013, 10:02:51 PM »
Copyright is not concerned with the profitability of your use of the copyrighted material, only whether you have permission to use the material.  It's similar to the property concept that if person A owns a piece of real estate, the rest of us can't use that real estate without the owner's permission. 

We're living in an age where people are putting copyrighted material all over youtube, but that doesn't mean its a wise thing to do or that there won't be consequences later. 

There is also the question whether one has the appropriate releases from each of the students to use their photos and performance of the material.  That's another issue besides the issue of use of the copyrighted music itself.

If you're going to do this for a school or other organization, you need to be sure you have all the appropriate clearances in place if you want to protect yourself and the organization.   



 

Offline achalsey

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2013, 12:14:19 AM »
We're living in an age where people are putting copyrighted material all over youtube, but that doesn't mean its a wise thing to do or that there won't be consequences later. 


But many of them clearly state in the description that they do not own the copyright and mean no infringement by posting, so obviously they're exempt from any legal consequences.  :P

Offline earmonger

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2013, 03:03:01 AM »
"Obviously" is not legally. They are below the radar but the disclaimer does nothing. .

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 02:09:09 AM »
Just coming back to this thread. The recording turned out well despite HVAC roar and one of the B-5s developing a buzz. Both issues were partly excised in software later. I'd just as soon get another pair of something else relatively inexpensive but that's a subject for elsewhere.

F.O.Bean: Nope, although I did suggest posting to LMA without objection. I only made a few CDs for the band director. Oh, and one for the harpist's mom who whined during setup my mic stand might be in the way of her video despite the obvious fact she had the freedom to make a decent video from any location, whereas I didn't have the same opportunity by putting mics just any 'ol place. And "Yes" was the answer to her question when she asked if the band director knew what I was doing. I told him about it later and he laughed.

And thank you earmonger. Yes, good links there. The mechanical license is a weird one. My understanding is that it's tied to distribution, not recording per se, but that you can't effectively record without someone (even if it's just the recordist) listening later, so there's your distribution ... I understand "CYA" but if a band gives me permission and I don't distribute publicly I think I'd feel OK which is to say, "safe." And I now understand that doing the work for free means nothing.

I have potential opportunities coming up to record a university ensemble, a professional big band and more high school shows. All of these would be permission granted/non-stealth with the intention of helping to promote their efforts.

Ideally, I think live recordings could/should be used for promotion towards getting people involved and going to shows be they high school or professional bands. What's frustrating is that the moment you post the shows online, copyright treats that the same as if you were doing it to make a buck on the recording and not the unique performance. There has to be a middle ground there beyond 30-second music clips.

Here was the stand with mics. Had them aimed a little too far down perhaps but it was OK. I was stationed stage-right out of view. The only cables I have are 100' and way too long here.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/181646/EHS%20mics.JPG

The mics look like you had them positioned pretty well ;) I would love to hear your very first recording, even if its just a 1 minute clip ;) Keep up the good work and running the mics like you did probably got a fine recording. But I think you are right, the mics do look like they're pointing downward a bit much! Other than that, looks great bro 8)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline LikeASong

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2013, 03:38:53 PM »
Well, that's quite a central obstacle :P But yeah, the harpist mother could move around while your mics needed to be placed at a safe, well centered spot.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2013, 04:44:38 PM »
We're living in an age where people are putting copyrighted material all over youtube, but that doesn't mean its a wise thing to do or that there won't be consequences later. 


But many of them clearly state in the description that they do not own the copyright and mean no infringement by posting, so obviously they're exempt from any legal consequences.  :P

I think it's more of a cost/benefit analysis by rights holders as to whether they want to receive the mechanical royalties paid by YouTube or not. YouTube's ads generate the funds to allow them to make payments to the actual rights holders -- a huge difference from, say a bittorrent site.
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 08:09:22 PM »
Here are some brief MP3 sample clips of four of the songs that show the dynamic range of the performance. Some songs were full band, many were a subset of that, and yet others were just one or three instruments.

In retrospect I don't know why I chose the Behringer's cardioid capsules (B-5) instead of the better-sounding omnis. Maybe I was worried about HVAC noise, which DID add a dull roar to everything and kill detail I had to partially excise in software later. Or maybe I was worried about crowd noise? Or maybe I read with ORTF you should use cards? I honestly can't remember. The B-5s were used without the rolloff filter nor pad.

In double retrospect it seems I could have done OK with the mics not so high in the air. Again, I guess I thought they should be up high. I'd say they were about 9ft above the stage?

*****************
I plan to be back recording the band again and if I can get the friggin' choir director to answer my emails, record the choir. But I'll always be at stage lip as shown and want to know what other mic types or configurations might be better?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2013, 08:49:01 PM »
Use omnis if you have them, spacing them as far apart as you can manage on your single stand.
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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2013, 08:57:40 PM »
... meaning, A-B or in one of the X-Y variants? Thanks!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2013, 12:38:44 AM »
Generally, for this type of stereo recording, the more directional the mic pattern the less spacing you want between mics. [edit] I think it's probably better stated the opposite way: the less directional the microphone pattern, the more spacing you'll want between microphones.  In grossly simplified terms, X/Y places the microphones as close together as possible and might be an appropriate choice if using hypercardioid or figure-8 microphones; cardioid microphones generally work well in near-spaced configurations like ORTF (which is only ORTF if you use cardioids), and omnidirectional microphones work best with more spacing between them.  That's generally referred to as A-B.

Because there is no absolute answer for how much spacing is correct, because some will prefer more spacing than others, and because most recordists don't have an easy way of adjusting mic spacing exactly to whatever they would like it to be and are usually pretty limited in how much spacing they can actually achieve, my advice is to use whatever contraption you can assemble to safely and securely rig your omnis as far apart from each other as you can on the top of your stand.  If you have the capability to do so, you can play around with adjusting the spacing on different dates and listen to the differences, settling on what you like best, but as a starting point, as far apart as you can manage is best for this.  We can throw suggestions and numbers and explanations at you, but trying it and listening to the difference is the best way to figure it out.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:51:55 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2013, 06:49:03 AM »
I'm sensing a rough decision matrix is used here, assuming a certain level of experience.

For example, omins sound better, or pick up more completely due to the close proximity to the band, therefore ORTF is out.

 ... I'm not wanting to short-circuit the experimentation but it helps to have a plan of understanding just the same. :) And yes I have some other reading I'll be doing.

A few days ago I was sure I wanted another, nicer set of SDC cardioids but now you've got me thinking not so much.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2013, 11:28:19 AM »
Omnis would be my first choice for that particular recording situation anyway, so before spending money on gear, I suggest using the microphones you already have first, especially if recording acoustic bands and chorus’ in that hall is your primary focus at this point.

Your assessment is accurate- to my thinking there is a decision matrix I sort of run through that’s developed partly by experience and partly by resources like this site, but it is multidimensional and goes different ways depending on various things: some revolve around the nature of the recording environment and the music, some have to do with microphone patterns and stereo configurations, some the attributes of your particular equipment, and then there is practicality, inclination, preference, budget, etc.  It’s all interdependent and each of those things influences the decision matrix. That’s all true, but it doesn’t really point you in any immediate direction, it’s mostly just a warning against simple cut and dry answers taken at face value and a good philosophical basis to work from.

Here’s a few more-concrete things that most will agree on that to get you going:

The most important thing is good microphone location; in this situation, you already have a pretty good handle on that. 

Concert recording is not like home recording or most studio recording.  Most information you’ll find on the internet outside of this site deals with home or studio recording.  There is some information on the old fashioned way of doing classical recording with a single pair of microphones, which is more applicable to concert recording in general. That’s even more applicable for you in this situation than it is for people around here who are recording bands in bars.

Typically with inexpensive microphones, omnis simply sound better and more natural than cardioids, ignoring all other factors which make choice of one microphone pickup pattern more appropriate than another. So if that is what you have available, and if the situation allows for them, omnis are often the better choice.  I would not hesitate to use the omnis you have to record in the situation you’ve described.

Cardioids are more forgiving in getting a decent recording in any generic recording situation.  ORTF is one of the best ‘all purpose’ cardioid microphone configurations and is easy to recommend as a good starting point for most situations.  It might not be the best choice, but usually isn’t terrible.  Most concert tapers that only own only one microphone pattern own a pair of cardioids and use them in near-spaced configurations similar to ORTF.

I’ll post later with a more fleshed out hierarchy of what’s important, but even though there are things with are more basic, check out the paper titled “The Stereo Zoom” by Michael Williams.  It explains the stereo relationship between microphone pickup pattern, spacing and angle between two microphones and some (not all) of the important implications of those relationships.  It describes a conceptual continuum from A-B spaced omnis to coincident X/Y figure-8 microphones.  ORTF and the other common microphone configurations you’ll read about around here such as DIN and NOS fall  somewhere in the middle of that continuum.  The Stereo Zoom both conceptually describes the relationships and offers a direct way of choosing an angle/pattern/spacing relationship for a specific situation.  It’s a useful tool for many of us, but I’m mostly recommending it for developing an understanding of the concept, more than using it to select a specific steup.  Do a search here at TS for threads on it and for links to the paper which is available free on line.  If you have trouble finding them, I’ll post links for you.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 11:53:39 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2013, 12:14:24 PM »
Generally, omnis are good when the room/concert hall sounds good and when the sound is not hindered by other problems like HVAC/People coughing/etc. 

When the room doesn't have good acoustics or you need to isolate the desired sound from the noise around it, then directional mics are more useful.

It's often useful to have a pair of cardoids and a pair of omnis.  Then you can blend to taste. 

The Williams paper is useful as a starting reference. 

For determining your actual mic placement, good isolation headphones are useful.   They enable you to listen to what the mics are picking up as you try different positions. Otherwise, you're sort of making a guess, maybe an educated guess, at what you may be recording.   

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2013, 01:43:48 PM »
All true, although I'd modify that slightly
Generally, omnis are good when the room/concert hall sounds good and when the sound is not hindered by other problems like HVAC/People coughing/etc.
 
And simply leave it at that for this situation.

As mentioned, a lot of things are interrelated and simple answers are hard to summarize.  With a few exceptions like nearby rattling vents, HVAC noise is usually mostly indirect, reverberant noise rather than direct arriving sound. Because of that, switching to directional mics won't make as much difference as adjusting microphone position to increase the level of the sound you want compared to the noise you don't want.  Cardioids usually don't have the same flat response to the lowest frequencies as omnis so even though the HVAC noise is diffuse, it's mostly very low frequency noise and a cardioid with less bass sensitivity will pick up less of that low frequency information, but also pick up less low frequency musical information from the performance and low frequency room envelopment as well.  If the problem is an HVAC airstream blowing directly across the mics, cardioids will have more of a problem than omnis since they are more suseptible to wind rumble. 

People will cough.  With non-amplified music such as this with quiet segments you will hear it regardless of microphone pattern. This boils down to personal preference, situation, and sometimes a case of the ailment being preferable to a less than totally effective remedy.  I prefer to accept coughs as part of a natural sounding enveloping room ambience rather than compromising the recording to get a somewhat quieter, but less natural sounding muffled and mono-reverberant coughs.  Your microphone position high and closer to the band than the audience will help greatly with this.  If you were recording a PA amplified band with a rowdy crowd, you could more effectively reduce the crowd noise by using directional microphones, which would likely also be a good choice for other reasons.

If you want the absolute best recording you can make and have the time, inclination and resources to edit it and learn some specialized tools, you can use software to nearly erase isolated anomalies like coughs and squeeks from quiet recordings, without compromising the positive aspects of the recording by choosing a less than optimal microphone configuration in an attempt to reduce the problem.  But that’s advanced stuff.
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2013, 02:15:07 PM »
Many thanks again and yes I'll check out the Williams article when I have a moment. My biggest concerns with this venue are: 1) mic stand placement and 2) HVAC roar. Audiences should never really be a problem.

As shown in my photo, they'll let me put a stand on the floor at stage lip. I don't recall any practical room for a stand on the stage but maybe I'm wrong about that, or maybe I was wanting dead-center and the band director's platform comes right to the stage lip.

That said, if I'm to try spaced omnis (and I am agreeable to trying it) then it would seem I need to get a second mic stand --- I don't see me getting a bar wide enough, because I won't be back far enough? Regardless, I'd be inclined to introduce another variable and lower the stand(s) somewhat ... get them closer to the band and further from the HVAC above, as well we be less visually intrusive.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2013, 03:58:03 PM »
If you have a second stand and it's cool to put both up, that will make rigging things and adjusting the spacing easier.  In that case I'd start with a 2' or 3' omni spacing and wouldn't go wider than 4' to start for the setup you posted the photo link to.  Even 4' might be pushing things there.  Wider still can work, but without a third mic in the center (which would allow you to double those spacings), much wider than that could be problematic.  If mounted on a single stand with some sort of mounting bar, you probably won't be able to go that wide, but you might manage 15" to 2' or so, which might be just right, even 12" might be enough.  For a chorus you can space them more widely if you want without problems.

Either way, from looking at your photo, I'd probably keep the stand(s) high with the mics pointed downwards towards the center of the group, but not try to move them any closer.  It's already close enough for both practical stage-space and sonic reasons, arguably even slightly too close for cardioids.  If the band was farther back on the stage and there was more room behind the conductor you could go lower, even down to stage level itself which sounds crazy but can work well, although it risks musicians stepping on the microphones and places the mics closer to the front rows of the audience making crowd sounds more audible.  Very low is least visually intrusive and very high can be less visually intrusive than mid-high as long as you route the cables cleanly so only the thin black stands block anyone's view.

When you read the Stereo Zoom, don't worry too much about corellating it to the omni spacing distances I've mentioned here.  It's the relationship between spacing, angle and pattern for directional mics which is the important thing to grasp there.

Before changing things too much to try and reduce the HVAC noise, if you have the opportunity at a rehersal or something the next time you are there, stand near the microphones, close your eyes, try to force yourself to forget where you are, then listen to discern if the HVAC noise is audibly localizable as coming from directly above or not.. or if that's simply where your eyes and brain tell you it is coming from. 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 04:00:59 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2013, 06:48:09 PM »
They don't rehearse in the auditorium and setting everything up to test isn't an option. I'd get maybe 1 minute of band tuneup to adjust levels before hitting Record.

Hard for my mind to grasp how spaced mics aimed straight ahead (even omnis) less than 4', and when so close to the stage filed with players spread wide, wouldn't still emphasize the players right near the middle. I think that's one reason why I used ORTF/cards last time. Am I wrong here?

Regarding the HVAC noise, I noticed that during setup when there last Spring ... it comes from directly overhead the stage. I hope they fired the architect or whomever designed that system. It was loud and on quiet passages easily competed with the music. That worries me with omnis, still. Out in the audience there's no HVAC noise over them. It's as if the room's only HVAC output comes from the stage? Nice auditorium nonetheless and not the gymnasium many high schools must use.

That said, I'd rather have to shelve down some from about 150Hz-down in post, as I had to do with much of my initial recording, than alter mic placement or choice in an attempt to not pick it up here: I'm convinced it's unavoidable unless I can get them to turn it off.

Gutbucket you've given me a lot of good info and I appreciate it!

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2013, 07:19:13 PM »
I have a choir situation where the HVAC vent is overhead (stage right) and a very large return vent is behind the stage on the right, too.

So I positioned a mesh pop filter between the mic and the vent.  It helped, but I'm open to other suggestions.  I don't have any solution for the return vent noise. 

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2013, 11:26:22 AM »
Hard for my mind to grasp how spaced mics aimed straight ahead (even omnis) less than 4', and when so close to the stage filed with players spread wide, wouldn't still emphasize the players right near the middle. I think that's one reason why I used ORTF/cards last time.

Although more can be better, 3’ is plenty and is something of an A-B baseline starting point for me for 2-channel stereo.  I’ll walk you through the mechanics of why it works-

Usually we want to fully fill the playback space between the speakers with the sound sources on stage, so that the musicians on the far left and right are reproduced from the left and right speakers and the musicians located between them are spread out evenly between the speakers.

Even though there are some signal level differences, A-B stereo is primarily based on the difference in arrival time of the same sound at each microphone. A timing difference of around ~1 millisecond is enough to pan a sound fully to one speaker or the other.  In one millisecond, sound travels about 1 foot.  With the microphones 1’ apart, we get that full 1ms timing difference only for a sounds arriving directly from one side of the other.  Sounds arriving from any other angle will have a path length difference of less than 1 foot and a smaller time of arrival difference, which means all of those sounds will be reproduced somewhere between the two speakers.  That means a one foot spacing produces a Stereo Recording Angle of 180 degrees. (approximately)

Stereo Recording Angle is a Stereo Zoom term which describes an imaginary window looking forward from the microphone perspective, framing the region which will be reproduced between the two speakers. All sounds arriving from within that window will be heard as coming from somewhere between the speakers and all sounds from outside that window will be fully panned over to one speaker or the other.  So with an SRA of 180degrees, a musician fully to the left side of the microphones is heard from the left speaker and the one fully to the right from the right speaker. Those between them will be heard as coming from somewhere between the two speakers.

A perhaps unintuitive aspect of the Stereo Zoom is that the farther apart the microphones are, the narrower the SRA becomes.  As the distance between microphones is increased, the 1ms timing threshold is reached at arrival angles closer to the centerline, outside that angle the timing difference will be greater than 1ms. 

If the microphone position is moved farther away from the source, we typically want to compensate with a narrower SRA, so that the band will still fully fill the playback stage between the speakers.  That requires a larger spacing between the mics.  So usually, the farther away an omni pair is located from the source, the wider apart you want to space them.  That’s the zoom part of the Stereo Zoom.

With the mic stand position you have in that hall, the band is arrayed in almost a full half-circle around the microphones, which is why a 12” spacing that gets something like a super wide 180 degree SRA wouldn’t be unreasonable.

If the micophones are spaced too widely, on playback the sound will either come from the middle or will be clumped at one speaker or the other and not evenly distributed between them.  People talk about a ‘hole in the middle’ on playback with over-wide mic spacings, but the sounds actually arriving from the middle (through the narrow SRA) will still sound centered, its just that there is less sound evenly distributed between the middle and the sides. You’ll just get a clump at the left speaker, a clump in the center, and a clump at the right without an even distribution between them.

Understanding that, I still like more spacing than the Stereo Zoom suggests for omnis because there are other things going on with this too.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2013, 11:28:21 AM »
More on the Stereo Zoom-

Directional microphones complicate the simple timing-based SRA relationship by also introducing signal level differences between channels.  The level differences are due to the angle between microphones and the shape of their polar sensitivity pattern.  Less spacing is required compared to A-B since those level differences pitch in to do some of the work.   The opposite extreme from timing based A-B stereo configurations are coincident X/Y patterns, where the mics are co-located in the same point in space and there are no timing differences. All the work is done by level differences.  Near-spaced configurations split the work between both timing and level differences, and you choose that balance by adjusting mic patterns, angles and spacings.  The Stereo Zoom is a way of understanding and manipulating that balance to our advantage.
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2013, 12:01:04 PM »
the farther apart the microphones are, the narrower the SRA becomes.

Yeah and you use that when further back to capture the timing differences better.

I think I see why, because of what you said earlier, "All sounds arriving from within that window will be heard as coming from somewhere between the speakers and all sounds from outside that window will be fully panned over to one speaker or the other."

Narrowly spaced mics seem at first to me like they'd miss capturing the extreme sides (especially with close stage-lip placement) but in fact "work" because any source extremely L or R, while down in level compared to smack dab in front, instead gets "highlighted" in the mix as just what it is in playback, extremely L or R in the presentation.

Is that sorta correct?

***********

3’ is plenty and is something of an A-B baseline starting point for me for 2-channel stereo.


Even so close to the stage, or because I'd be so close to the stage?

Overall I think I get it ... I recall reading elsewhere 4' is a common minimum for A-B but that likely assumes mic placement further back which is why 2-3' feet apart is likely plenty here.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2013, 12:48:42 PM »
Narrowly spaced mics seem at first to me like they'd miss capturing the extreme sides (especially with close stage-lip placement) but in fact "work" because any source extremely L or R, while down in level compared to smack dab in front, instead gets "highlighted" in the mix as just what it is in playback, extremely L or R in the presentation.

Is that sorta correct?

Yeah, it might help to think of it in terms of this simplification-
In terms of left/right imaging with an A-B setup, consider the sounds arriving from anywhere on the stage to be of about the same level regardless of where they come from.  Think of the level differences that do exist (along with the timbre differences and differences in the amount of direct sound compared to reverberant sound due to some things being farther away) as affecting the apparent 'depth' in the recording more than the left/right imaging.

Quote
"3' is plenty and is something of an A-B baseline starting point for me for 2-channel stereo."

Even so close to the stage, or because I'd be so close to the stage?

I’ve found that a good practical starting point for me both up close and from farther away.  You’ve hit on something though, and that’s when up close, things get more complicated because there begins to be more level differences possible for some specific sources simply from greatly increased proximity to one mic or the other and other things going on.  Maybe that suggests that far away means a bigger spacing, closer means less spacing, and when very close you can go either way for different reasons.  So for other things like instrumental jazz and rock bands, I might put omnis across the stage lip and space them at 3 or 4’ intervals.  That’s more than the time-of-arrival difference theory alone suggests and the increased level differences would seem to amplify that even more so, but it works well and I like the sound I get from it.. and that’s what’s most important. All this technical stuff just helps to figure out how to get the sound I want.  Sometimes it applies clearly and sometimes it doesn’t.

A somewhat standard way of professionally mic’ing orchestras is to have a main pair of omnis above and behind the conductors head that are only about 2’ apart and produce most of the left/right stereo imaging based on the SRA stuff, mixed with another much wider spaced pair flanking them which provide the width and spaciousness sound of wide spaced omnis, along with some section balancing.  The idea is to sort of combine the best of both approaches.  Several of the classical halls I visit use that setup in a permanent hanging arrangement.  I do something similar, but use three mics with just one in the middle and less spacing out to the wide mics.  In that case my starting point is ~3’ between each, for about ~6’ overall between the left and right microphones.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2013, 12:49:09 PM »
I have a choir situation where the HVAC vent is overhead (stage right) and a very large return vent is behind the stage on the right, too.

So I positioned a mesh pop filter between the mic and the vent.  It helped, but I'm open to other suggestions.  I don't have any solution for the return vent noise.

A pop filter isn't going to do much since it's purpose is to let as much sound as possible through while blocking air-blasts.  You would be better off doing the same thing with something blocks sound like a baffle.  A Jecklin disk repurposed for the job might work if you have one.

Come to think of it, a Jecklin disk may be a good option for you to use both omnis on one stand, RemotelyLocated.  If you're not familiar with it, its a flat baffle with sound absorbing material on it which is placed between to near-spaced omnis to make them somewhat directional, providing increased side to side level differences at mid and high frequencies.  It makes the omnis act more like cardioids and allows you to use a standard narrow mic-bar and place them much closer together than would otherwise work.  It blocks sightlines, but it is oriented edge-on to the audience and with your stand that high it may be above anyone' line of sight.  In my experience, they work very well up close where they produce very natural sounding recordings that are less-bright sounding with more anchored imaging but less low end envelopment than wider A-B spaced omnis. Many around here have made their own disks and there are threads about doing so.  They seem to pop up again every few years.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2013, 08:43:08 AM »
My vent situation is a bit unusual in that this particular supply vent blasts a stream of air to the point that you can feel the air moving past the mic.   Positioning the pop filter between the mic and the air source cut out the air roar. 

In a situation where the air is diffuse, then a pop filter wouldn't be helpful.  The noise in that instance is the noise of the air moving through the vent instead of air moving past the microphone. 

In Remotely Located's situation, it would be nice if he could hang his mics so there's no mic stand for any harpist's moms to complain about.   


Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2013, 09:42:09 AM »
My initial recording that started off this thread was about recording the band's concerts. I'd also been trying to get hold of the choir director; he's got a concert coming up next week. I finally did and here's his reply:

"... personally I would love to have you come and record the group.  However, earlier this semester all of the music teachers in the county were required to attend a copyright clinic and per county policy we are putting a statement in our program saying videoing and recording is illegal.  In order to legally do that, we would have to purchase the rights of each individual song on the program.  Whereas I wish this option was available for my kids, I'm not going to risk any legal issues. 
Thanks"

I think he's equating parents recording with the school doing a recording for themselves (which would essentially be my role here) but can't see arguing the point if it's a misinterpretation. Still, I feel I should respond in some way, at least ask if "the clinic" made such a distinction. Also, I might not have been clear enough in my intention to record.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2013, 10:32:12 AM »
OK I got a little fired up about this. Here's my reply to the choir director, and I cc'd the band leader.

"Dear ___,

I understand and share your concern and priority. However, copyright law actually does permit you (the educator) to record and have one copy of a student performance, and this has been true since 1976.

Unless I'm mistaken the clinic wanted to make it clear that anyone else couldn't possess a copy and that's why parents aren't allowed to record and why we can't give them a copy I make.

Worth a read, particularly the "Recording" paragraph:
http://musiced.nafme.org/resources/copyright-center/copyright-law-what-music-teachers-need-to-know/

To be clear, any role I play would strictly be on behalf of the school, without any intention of distribution and would be happy to enter into a simple contract that says so. I enjoy the practice and the experience of recording as a hobby but that's as far as it goes --- I don't even have my kids at EHS yet.

If the District's policy makes a blanket statement that doesn't address the educator's right to one recording of a student's performance, consider raising (an obvious) red flag for yourself and your colleagues.

Regards, ...."

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2013, 10:34:23 AM »
My vent situation is a bit unusual in that this particular supply vent blasts a stream of air to the point that you can feel the air moving past the mic.   Positioning the pop filter between the mic and the air source cut out the air roar. 

In a situation where the air is diffuse, then a pop filter wouldn't be helpful.  The noise in that instance is the noise of the air moving through the vent instead of air moving past the microphone. 

In Remotely Located's situation, it would be nice if he could hang his mics so there's no mic stand for any harpist's moms to complain about.   

Okay, in that case the pop filter is acting more like a windscreen and may be more appropriate than a baffle.  A baffle may help block vent noise/rattle coming from a specific direction if you can place it between the mic and the source of noise.  Low frequency HVAC rumble is diffuse, essentially coming from all directions in the room, and a small baffle wouldn’t be large enough to block those low frequencies it even if it was coming from a specific location, so there isn’t much you can do about that by way of setup other than getting the microphones relatively close to the source to improve the signal to noise ratio.

Hanging mics make sightline problems easier, but are much, much more hassle to setup and orient unless you can make a permanent rig that you simply lower and attach the mics to. They are also a lot more difficult to adjust if you want to play around with different mic setups.   


Can’t help with the copywrite stuff.  Isn't there is an exception for educational use?
[Ignore that, just saw you latest post]
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2013, 02:24:04 PM »
Got a reply from the other director. Seems that yes, they had the bejeezes scared out of them via a PowerPoint slideshow--no documentation, nothing from the school District itself--by a representative (the person who gave the "clinic") Soundzabound..which is a royalty free music site. Still a mystery as how this became District Policy.

<sigh>

I have the guy's name and email now but might instead just go to the District Superintendent.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2013, 03:27:44 PM »
Copyright is complicated enough that the school, the director and the superintendent might decide to err on the side of caution and just not record anything. 

From the perspective of dealing with parents, it's an easier thing to say that the school's official policy is that no one records anything instead of trying to explain to the harpist's mom why the director can have a copy of the recording, but she isn't legally entitled to one.  The director might not even want to have a copy if it means his having to tell some pushy Mom why she can't.   

The losers in this are the director who could have used the recording as a teaching tool  and the director's students who could have heard their own performance and been motivated to play better.   Unless the director sees the recording as a useful teaching tool, the director isn't going to push for recording in the face of school district policy headed the other way.

Eons ago, our high school band director showed us video recordings of our marching band so we could see where we needed improvement.  The band can't go sit in the audience and see and hear what they sound like.  If the school district takes away their ability to record themselves, then they've taken away a valuable learning tool.   

 

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2013, 03:52:22 PM »
I'm with you. When I was in high school, the director had a Technics RS1500 he recorded every concert with @15ips ... they sounded good, and so did we. In middle school there was a Sony TC377 that got rolled out in a big wooden console for the same purpose --- kids got to hear themselves the next day.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2013, 04:22:46 PM »
So my little drama continues to play itself out. Got another email from the choir director. Note the last sentence.

"If it is just a recording for school documenting purposes I think I want to run it by Mr. ___.  I was misunderstanding and thinking you wanted to record and sell CDs. In order to submit for conferences and such we need a good base of recordings and this would be the best way to get them."

I quickly replied with clarity about my intentions not to sell or distribute in any way. I also included the part about when we recorded when I was in school. I left out the geeky tape deck model numbers part. :)

Offline capnhook

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2013, 05:21:05 PM »
Pardon me, why don't you just link them to this forum's thread, so they can see for themselves what kind of douchebags they are being.

Deny a parent the right to record a public performance in a public place for her personal use??


Who wants a slug in the mouth first?
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Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2013, 05:38:00 PM »
We don't know exactly what information or misinformation has been given to the school that needs to be cleared up. 

Choralnet might be a good resource for further research for reasons to support why the school should record.  For one thing, I've been told that the sound a vocal student hears in one's own head is not the sound that others hear, and that's why so many vocal trainers record as part of their student vocal training. 

I remember a lot of wincing among us in high school when we heard what we sounded like.   :-[


edit:  the school drama teacher might also be a supporter in this because it's one thing to tell a student what they did on stage, and another thing to show them a video recording of mumbled lines, missed cues, improper stage position, looking down, hiding behind other actors.... 

« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 05:57:56 PM by 2manyrocks »

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2013, 06:40:49 PM »
The information they were apparently given came from a Soundzabound.com rep. You can go to their site and quickly learn of their anti-Fair Use bias. They also have PowerPoints you can download that do nothing but cast doubt on Fair Use, "don't even try to figure it out" type of language. Pathetic. I'm also annoyed they get PAID good money--apparently $1500-$2500--to give these "clinics" that only serve their own interests.

And yes, Soundzabound.com is in the business of selling royalty-free music, which is probably 99% of what no one would want to use, but whatever.


capnhook, the school's educators are on OUR side here, but naturally concerned about getting their ass handed to them. However, parents do not have the right to record anything, for any reason.

Given the last email I received and mentioned above, I'm hopeful this will get resolved.

Offline capnhook

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2013, 05:11:17 AM »
However, parents do not have the right to record anything, for any reason.

Given the last email I received and mentioned above, I'm hopeful this will get resolved.

I predict bloody noses and lawsuits  ::)
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2013, 08:34:12 AM »
Nah, they'll just hold up their phones and tablets, like always. The days of bringing in even tiny camcorders are pretty much over at these things, unless you still makes calls on your 10-yr old Nokia or are actually a professional.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2013, 09:38:40 AM »
Unprofessionaly, I accidentally dropped my 10 yr old Nokia into Biscayne bay last winter, and was sorry to see it go- A phone that was simply a phone.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2013, 10:13:34 AM »
Yes, and too bad John's Phone turned out to be a POS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John's_Phone

Offline capnhook

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2013, 02:58:02 PM »
Yes, and too bad John's Phone turned out to be a POS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John's_Phone

Wooohoooooo!

"John's Phone features a 32-page paper address book kept on the back of the handset. It includes an ink pen that resembles a stylus, a notepad, and a tongue-in-cheek "Games" section (for tic-tac-toe). The designers say that these features allow the phone to be used even when it is turned off."
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2013, 09:27:37 PM »
I wonder what will happen to the school's policy when a devoted parent shows up with a hand held recorder to record their darling prodigy and gets into with the faculty? I predict all hell breaking loose.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2013, 09:44:54 PM »
until the school police show up....

The OP might get a feel for where this might actually be headed in his school district by looking to see what policies have been put in place at other school districts that have gone with soundzabound. 




Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2013, 09:52:06 PM »
Yeah but what if that devoted parent is a lawyer? Or some other person with clout. Just conjecture on my part, you are going about things the right way.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2013, 10:57:02 PM »
By the time the school board makes a policy, it's tough as nails to get it changed. That's why the OP needs to stay in contact with the music director, find out what the expert is advising the school district to do, and then try to make sure that the policy allows for archival recordings just the way it's been for years before the policy is put in place by the school board.  Once the school board makes it policy, they will consider it settled business whether it's a good policy or not.

 

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2013, 12:12:53 PM »
Yeah I don't understand the soundzabound piece of this. I suspect they weren't sought out to give expert opinion but likely pitched the school district for the opportunity to do so. After all, they advertise these expensive presentations prominently on their site. I don't see a school district approaching a company who's against Fair Use and asking, "Hey, can people record what we do?"

And it's a local company, so there's possibly something to that.

I've since asked one of the directors if during the "clinic" if they were provided any documentation or compelled to sign anything acknowledging understanding/compliance ... he said no, they were not. Just scared silly by a company with an agenda. Awfully important "policy" that doesn't require anything written to that effect? Huh?

Having said that, it's also likely someone above the directors, possibly someone who works as an administrator in the District (who hired soundzabound to show up?) could have also been in attendance and helped give everyone the stink eye to toe whatever line was there.

Still waiting to hear back for authorization ... show is next week.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2013, 06:11:29 PM »
Think about it this way as a hypothetical example.    School vendors can make a lot of money.  Textbooks, food supply, building maintenance, insurance, diesel fuel for the buses, school yearbooks, class rings.  Take whatever product it is and multiply it times the number of students over X years x the price of the product.  It could be a lot of money. 

People want to sell their products and services to school districts for $.  School districts don't just buy stuff without a reason.  If I am trying to sell my services to the school district, the first order of business for me is to convince the school district that they really, really need to sign a contract with me because I can help them avoid getting into any hassles over copyright infringement.   As part of that, I need to educate them how they can get in trouble and how my services can keep that from happening if I am the one trying to sell my services to the school.  If the school doesn't think they can get in trouble, they aren't likely to buy my services. 

One way to try figure out what this might mean in actual practice in your own school district is to contact someone in another school district that has actually been using these services and ask what policies the other school district has put in place about recording.   



 


Offline capnhook

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2013, 08:55:07 PM »
By the time the school board makes a policy, it's tough as nails to get it changed. That's why the OP needs to stay in contact with the music director, find out what the expert is advising the school district to do, and then try to make sure that the policy allows for archival recordings just the way it's been for years before the policy is put in place by the school board.  Once the school board makes it policy, they will consider it settled business whether it's a good policy or not.

.....and hopefully very soon, as my esteemed friend cybergaloot strongly suggests, the school board gets its asses handed to them in court, eh?
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2013, 09:08:18 AM »
I'M IN! Got the confirmation today, after touching base once more last night.

I don't know why I'm so excited. Oh yeah I do; it's because I know I've potentially helped the entire fracking school district's music department.

Now all I gotta do is show up and not screw it up.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2013, 11:05:40 AM »
Strong work!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline capnhook

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2013, 04:50:17 PM »
I'M IN! Got the confirmation today, after touching base once more last night.

I don't know why I'm so excited. Oh yeah I do; it's because I know I've potentially helped the entire fracking school district's music department.

Now all I gotta do is show up and not screw it up.

Make great tapes..!
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2013, 09:25:29 PM »

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2013, 09:37:32 AM »
But you have to have two of them for stereo.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2013, 11:21:31 AM »
True. Maybe I'll haul out the Otari 5050 4-ch instead.

Not.

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2013, 01:47:53 PM »

Make great tapes..!

All set.


Wrong deck --- that's the tape deck to my Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer..

You need a pro model....with "vari-speed" to do the job....

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BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2013, 12:16:45 PM »
I'M IN! Got the confirmation today, after touching base once more last night.

I don't know why I'm so excited. Oh yeah I do; it's because I know I've potentially helped the entire fracking school district's music department.

Now all I gotta do is show up and not screw it up.

Good work! Congratulations!
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

this>that>the other

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2013, 12:17:45 PM »

Make great tapes..!

All set.


Wrong deck --- that's the tape deck to my Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer..

You need a pro model....with "vari-speed" to do the job....



Hey now, my first computer was a Timex/Sinclair. I had the expanded memory module, I was rolling in high cotton.
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Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

this>that>the other

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2013, 04:26:46 PM »

Hey now, my first computer was a Timex/Sinclair. I had the expanded memory module, I was rolling in high cotton.

Yeah, who would ever need more than 16K RAM, and 45 minutes of cassette storage?
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2013, 05:00:32 PM »

Hey now, my first computer was a Timex/Sinclair. I had the expanded memory module, I was rolling in high cotton.

Yeah, who would ever need more than 16K RAM, and 45 minutes of cassette storage?

I've still got a couple of books with programs in basic that you could type in. No typos allowed!
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Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

this>that>the other

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2013, 11:17:19 AM »
In an old thread introducing the Samson CL2s here, I linked to a few samples of the resulting recording from all this copyright-stuff two nights ago (my second recording!) I was soldering new cables that afternoon as the eBay Samson's arrived ...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=75618.msg2064531#msg2064531

Special thanks to Gutbucket for mic placement advice. Really happy with how it turned out. I made a wide stereo bar out of a 4' flat, "punched" zinc bar cut in half and sandwiched together with black electrical tape, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Crown-Bolt-1-3-8-in-x-48-in-Zinc-Plated-Punched-Steel-Flat-Bar-with-1-16-in-Thick-18050/202183472#.UnJwr5E_4ds

There were a few soloists who wandered as they sang and so that's a little weird to have them moving between the speakers but I'm nitpicking here.

I also learned that the drinking fountain backstage, when used (as some waiting performers did), introduces a nasty spike in the AC line I shared. Apparently, the solenoid that activates when the bar is pushed in to get water does this, not the refrigeration compressor! I watched helplessly as sharp 0-db spikes got recorded, but was able to later get rid of them in isotope RX2, a miracle worker.

Both the Mac's and the audio interface's AC power go through their normal power adapter transformers first, but if you've got a suggestion that might isolate that, lemme know --- I can run the audio interface without AC (it's FireWire) but my Mac's battery won't last for a whole show. Cheaper plug/ground lift adapter?

What's funny is, that happened on a song performed especially for the recording. It wasn't on the program and the director made an announcement he wanted a good recording of the song to take to State competition! Holy Shit! At that point I was checking everything to make sure it was all still going and working ...  :o

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2013, 05:55:14 PM »

Hey now, my first computer was a Timex/Sinclair. I had the expanded memory module, I was rolling in high cotton.

Yeah, who would ever need more than 16K RAM, and 45 minutes of cassette storage?

Lucky, I wanted the add on memory, couldn't afford it. Bought TI-994a next, complained to my dad about the woefully inadequate 16K of RAM. He started telling me how they used to run an insurance company on a mainframe with only 16K of RAM, and I should be grateful for that. :)
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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2013, 10:31:06 PM »

Hey now, my first computer was a Timex/Sinclair. I had the expanded memory module, I was rolling in high cotton.

Yeah, who would ever need more than 16K RAM, and 45 minutes of cassette storage?

Lucky, I wanted the add on memory, couldn't afford it. Bought TI-994a next, complained to my dad about the woefully inadequate 16K of RAM. He started telling me how they used to run an insurance company on a mainframe with only 16K of RAM, and I should be grateful for that. :)

 :thinking:
You could say the first "preamp" I ever bought was this thing called a "Z-Box", that took the program signal from the cassette recorder and sweetened it up so that the Timex could "hear" it better.....wooohooooo!
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2013, 05:57:54 PM »

Hey now, my first computer was a Timex/Sinclair. I had the expanded memory module, I was rolling in high cotton.

Yeah, who would ever need more than 16K RAM, and 45 minutes of cassette storage?

Lucky, I wanted the add on memory, couldn't afford it. Bought TI-994a next, complained to my dad about the woefully inadequate 16K of RAM. He started telling me how they used to run an insurance company on a mainframe with only 16K of RAM, and I should be grateful for that. :)

 :thinking:
You could say the first "preamp" I ever bought was this thing called a "Z-Box", that took the program signal from the cassette recorder and sweetened it up so that the Timex could "hear" it better.....wooohooooo!

I must have needed one of those. I never could get it to save and restore from the cassette deck.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2013, 09:34:53 PM »
 Congratulations, recordings sound nice.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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