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Author Topic: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)  (Read 24881 times)

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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #135 on: October 05, 2019, 04:51:48 PM »
I got in the habit recording the L/R mix on the F8 and F8n, putting the ISO tracks on one of the SD cards and the L/R mix on the other.  When dealing with string plus piano groups (usually piano trios or quartets) I use a main stereo pair (usually ORTF) and spot the piano with the Josephsons or sometimes other omnis.  If I have time to set the balances correctly before the recital, the L/R pair is good to go, saves a lot of work in post; if not, I go back to the ISO tracks.  On the F8 I can do my best to optimize levels for the ISO tracks with trim and then use the faders to get the piano sound and balance correct in the mix.  I suppose with 32 bit float I can just try to get the mix right and let magic floating point take care of the ISO levels, but it will take getting used to.

Jeff

Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #136 on: October 05, 2019, 05:03:57 PM »
I got in the habit recording the L/R mix on the F8 and F8n, putting the ISO tracks on one of the SD cards and the L/R mix on the other.  When dealing with string plus piano groups (usually piano trios or quartets) I use a main stereo pair (usually ORTF) and spot the piano with the Josephsons or sometimes other omnis.  If I have time to set the balances correctly before the recital, the L/R pair is good to go, saves a lot of work in post; if not, I go back to the ISO tracks.  On the F8 I can do my best to optimize levels for the ISO tracks with trim and then use the faders to get the piano sound and balance correct in the mix.

Thanks for sharing that.  Sounds like a workflow that makes a lot of sense.  Do you monitor off the F8/n in a separate room with monitor speakers, or are you able to balance your mix with headphones?

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I suppose with 32 bit float I can just try to get the mix right and let magic floating point take care of the ISO levels, but it will take getting used to.

My guess is that is what Zoom intends for users to do.
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #137 on: October 05, 2019, 05:13:36 PM »


Do you monitor off the F8/n in a separate room with monitor speakers, or are you able to balance your mix with headphones?



I do everything on headphones.  I use Remote Audio HN 7506 for isolation both onsite and at home. I listen on an Enigmacoustics Dharma 1000 for fun.  I occasionally ask a friend with a high end speaker setup to pass judgment when I get lost in comparisons or try something new (like the ZYLIA Ambisonic 19 channel mic).

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #138 on: October 07, 2019, 06:53:22 PM »
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #139 on: October 07, 2019, 07:00:51 PM »
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.

That's an option on the F8n, so....maybe?
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #140 on: October 07, 2019, 07:06:08 PM »
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.

That's an option on the F8n, so....maybe?

I'm hoping so.  It would be a pain to go through the menus and disable that if I wanted to change mics while powered up.

I do know that "power save mode" deactivates phantom while in playback, but it doesn't say more than that.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #141 on: October 07, 2019, 07:46:27 PM »
OK, I realized that I had a major DUH moment here regarding the Reference / REC level for the channel knobs in 32-bit float mode:

As the block diagrams in the manual clearly show, all level adjustments in 32-bit float mode are post-ADC.  So WiFiJeff was correct: Zoom is putting a lot of faith into 32-bit float mode, because you really can't adjust it where it's going to prevent damage to your recording.  All that you can adjust is post-ADC level that is being written to the 32-bit float container, and it has already been shown that you can amplify or attenuate that until the cows come home with nothing lost.

That means that if you are going to adjust levels in post, it doesn't matter which knob setting you choose.  The setting would only matter if:
1. You don't want to adjust levels of your ISO tracks in post, in which case you choose Rec Level.
2. You want to make a L/R down mix on the recorder, as WiFiJeff does, in which case you choose Reference and use the knobs as faders for the L/R track.

What one still must remember is that the inputs can be clipped by a very hot mic signal.  I did my best, clapping and yelling, but my mics aren't particularly sensitive.  I would love to see a test where that tipping point on the inputs is reached.
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Offline fguidry

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #142 on: October 08, 2019, 12:41:33 PM »
Is P48 available when inputs are set to LINE? If so, the headroom in that mode is pretty substantial. And if so, what is the self-noise like in that mode?

Fran

Offline dallman

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #143 on: October 08, 2019, 01:34:30 PM »
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.

That's an option on the F8n, so....maybe?

I'm hoping so.  It would be a pain to go through the menus and disable that if I wanted to change mics while powered up.

I do know that "power save mode" deactivates phantom while in playback, but it doesn't say more than that.

I hate to speculate because it makes it easy to circulate bad info, but I do not think turning trim off would disable the P48 setting. My rationale is that if you are in 32Bit float mode,and have p48 turned on, the trim is disabled and you still have p48. So what would happen if you are set at 32bit float and 24 or 16 bit? P48 would still be on, and disabling it would still require p48 be on for 32bit float, so if only 24 and/or 16 bit was selected, would turning off trim disable p48? It seems unlikely but again I am only attempting a logical conclusion and that may or may not be correct.

On a different note according to the manual, P48 is available when line in is selected.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 01:44:50 AM by dallman »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #144 on: October 08, 2019, 04:56:40 PM »
Is P48 available when inputs are set to LINE? If so, the headroom in that mode is pretty substantial. And if so, what is the self-noise like in that mode?

Fran

1. Yes
2. Don't know, but I doubt it should be a whole lot worse.  Someone who owns very sensitive / hot-output mics should test it.
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #145 on: October 11, 2019, 04:20:07 PM »
I ran the F6 at a piano recital again today, this time 32 bit float only, no 24 bit fixed backup, two stereo tracks.  I had the Track Knob set to Rec Level, so the input "trim" was controlled, I guess, by the knobs.  I cut the L/R mix levels by -3 dB in the Rec > LR Track > LR Fader menu, so that the L/R tracks came out matching the ISO stereo take. 

1) I set the "trim" at +13 dB, a little below where I set the menu trim last week with dual recording (Liszt Transcendental Etudes are pretty loud).  In spite of the screen showing no red that I noticed, the recording, viewed in Audacity, Wavelab 6, and Rx7, looked clipped, and had to be reduced 7-8 dB to get a clean track.  That worked fine, but Wavelab had problems with it.  First it showed that I was about 640 dB over, clearly wrong since the clipping was nowhere near that awful.  Rx7 got the peak levels correct, and Wavelab let me cut by -8 dB, but when I tried to save the corrected file it saved something with a good L track but a clipped R.  Copying the file to a new track instead of trying to save it directly fixed that, I would guess newer version of Wavelab might handle 32 bit better.

2) Sounds good.  Next week I have a piano and wind sextet, will do 4-5 tracks and see if 32 bit helps with instrumentalists who can move and maybe get too close to the mics.

Jeff

Offline aaronji

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #146 on: October 11, 2019, 06:31:33 PM »
^ My interpretation of the block diagram is that, in 32-bit float mode, any gain is post ADC, so totally immaterial. Voltronic appears to view it the same way (see several posts above). Maybe worth testing that before investing too much time futzing around with it...

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #147 on: October 11, 2019, 10:45:33 PM »
If this is the case, why not just build a 32 bit machine WITHOUT any premaps and sell them for a lot less money?

Offline Gordon

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #148 on: October 11, 2019, 11:09:48 PM »
Wavelab had problems with it.  First it showed that I was about 640 dB over, clearly wrong since the clipping was nowhere near that awful. 

this has nothing to do with 32bit float.  from time to time with the whole file selected and checking gain wavelab comes up with that number.  doesn't happen all the time but I've seen it a lot.  if you select all but a millisecond you'll get the true gain read.
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #149 on: October 12, 2019, 12:57:06 AM »
Wavelab had problems with it.  First it showed that I was about 640 dB over, clearly wrong since the clipping was nowhere near that awful. 

this has nothing to do with 32bit float.  from time to time with the whole file selected and checking gain wavelab comes up with that number.  doesn't happen all the time but I've seen it a lot.  if you select all but a millisecond you'll get the true gain read.

Thanks.  How have I managed to miss this exciting feature of Wavelab in my earlier years?  Just what the doctor ordered for maintaining or destroying heart fitness.

 

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