Topic: Starting out St**lth style...

[Fonky]

I'm looking at getting an Edirol R09hr for sly recording of live gigs/festivals. I've read allsorts and could do with some advice from someone that knows their stuff. I want to spend around £400-£500 on my gear. From what I've read I'll be needing some external 'st**lth style mics. I've heard great things about ChurchAudios but I can't wait 2 months to get em. I'm pretty set on getting the R09hr so basically, what mics would be best? If I can get away with it I'd rather not add extras unless they're needed (Batt. box, pre-amps etc) but if I have to, which is best, and most compact? Could do with some help on the sly side of things too, where to hide my mics while recording etc...

Thanks for any help. 

[acidjack]

pm sent

[stevetoney]

I was skeptical of some posts made a month or two ago that touted the internal mics on the Sony D50.  However, I recently bought one of these on the strengths of its other features (wasn't planning on using them, so I didn't care about the internal mics).  So, I recently did a festival where, after initial set-up, I thought I was recording through my Schoeps mics (line-in) but the switch on the D50 was accidentally set to the mic-in position, which means that the internal mics (sitting on the ground) were being used instead of my Schoeps mics (flying 10 ft high).  I applied a small mount of EQ to bump the highs, but here's what resulted...

http://www.archive.org/details/roothog2010-04-16.d50.16bit

Therefore, if I were you, I'd buy the D50 and use the internals for stealthy recording.  Save up and buy a good pair of mics and preamp for open recording.  Second plan would be to buy the D50 now and use the internals now...and order CA-14/ST-9100 to use either in stealth or open mode once they arrive.

I've now used the D50 and the R09HR and, while I really can't say anything bad about the R-09HR, I just think the D50 is worth the extra money because it's just a really solid recorder.  The  all-metal construction and great feature set really differentiate it and set it apart from everything else that's out there.  Best of all, it goes between 20 and 25 hours on a set of batteries.  The R-09HR is plastic and goes about 5 hours.  The only negative to say about the D50 is that it uses Sony ProDuo media...which isn't all that big of a negative.

The D50 fits in a shirt pocket.

[danlynch]

I'm not sure how you were able to tell the difference between the Schoeps and the internal D-50 mics on the ground.   

[stevetoney]

I'm not sure how you were able to tell the difference between the Schoeps and the internal D-50 mics on the ground.   

That's the thanks I get for defending you in your AK50 assault.  LOL. 

[nameloc01]

the first step is to embrace The Dark Side.

[acidjack]

I would have to disagree with this, if for no other reason because a D50 alone may well be less "stealthy" than a smaller deck in a pocket connected to external, smaller mics.  Are the D50 mics directional also?  Because if they are, it seems like it would be very un-"stealthy" to have to aim a D50 at the sound source, either by hand or some other method, to get a good recording...

Not knocking the internals of the D50, just their usefulness in this application.  I personally would not be wild about omnis in a shirt pocket vs. good small omnis mounted HRTF.

I was skeptical of some posts made a month or two ago that touted the internal mics on the Sony D50.  However, I recently bought one of these on the strengths of its other features (wasn't planning on using them, so I didn't care about the internal mics).  So, I recently did a festival where, after initial set-up, I thought I was recording through my Schoeps mics (line-in) but the switch on the D50 was accidentally set to the mic-in position, which means that the internal mics (sitting on the ground) were being used instead of my Schoeps mics (flying 10 ft high).  I applied a small mount of EQ to bump the highs, but here's what resulted...

http://www.archive.org/details/roothog2010-04-16.d50.16bit

Therefore, if I were you, I'd buy the D50 and use the internals for stealthy recording.  Save up and buy a good pair of mics and preamp for open recording.  Second plan would be to buy the D50 now and use the internals now...and order CA-14/ST-9100 to use either in stealth or open mode once they arrive.

I've now used the D50 and the R09HR and, while I really can't say anything bad about the R-09HR, I just think the D50 is worth the extra money because it's just a really solid recorder.  The  all-metal construction and great feature set really differentiate it and set it apart from everything else that's out there.  Best of all, it goes between 20 and 25 hours on a set of batteries.  The R-09HR is plastic and goes about 5 hours.  The only negative to say about the D50 is that it uses Sony ProDuo media...which isn't all that big of a negative.

The D50 fits in a shirt pocket.

[Belexes]

I think the D50 mics are cardioid/direction. In a shirt pocket you'd get a nice recording of the room reflections from the ceiling. 

[stevetoney]

I would have to disagree with this, if for no other reason because a D50 alone may well be less "stealthy" than a smaller deck in a pocket connected to external, smaller mics.  Are the D50 mics directional also?  Because if they are, it seems like it would be very un-"stealthy" to have to aim a D50 at the sound source, either by hand or some other method, to get a good recording...

Not knocking the internals of the D50, just their usefulness in this application.  I personally would not be wild about omnis in a shirt pocket vs. good small omnis mounted HRTF.

Well, there ya go!  Everyone has an opinion.  That's why I offered mine.  I too argued against internals before I heard what this deck does.  Now that I've used the D50, I have no problem recommending the internal in this deck and that's why I offered it up. 

Standing DFC during the show with the D50 in your pocket and the internals pointing out the top of the pocket reasonably in the direction of either stack...how much easier and more stealthy does it get?

Regarding the sound you could expect, the proof is in the pudding...that's why I posted a link for the OP to listen to an actual sample.  In this case, the D50 was sitting randomly on the ground near the top of my open gear bag...I have no clue exactly how it was positioned.  All I know is that the resulting sound is pretty amazing given the situation...and all I did was added a little high end to compensate for what was missing as a result of the poor positioning. 

IMHO, it bodes well for the internals on the D50, but the OP has to make up his own mind...I'm just offering an option that seemed to fit in well with what he was asking in his OP.

[stevetoney]

I think the D50 mics are cardioid/direction. In a shirt pocket you'd get a nice recording of the room reflections from the ceiling. 

Whatever.  OP, please read my responses and judge for yourself if the D50 will work for you and how you might like to apply it.  The internal mics are adjustable between 120 degrees incident angle and 0 degrees.  If that works for you, then there's a chance that the internals might work for you.  If it doesn't then by all means, external mics are the better option. 

Most tapers are snobs about gear and anal about mic positioning.  The general opinion is that internal mics on gear are garbage and, with every other deck I've owned that has internal mics, I agree.  I'm simply stating that the D50's were a very pleasant surprise and you might want to consider the D50 over the R09HR because the internals will give you a decent sounding option for recording that you don't have with the R09HR.

[gewwang]

Stealthing with the recorder in the shirt pocket works until you want to look at the levels or just look at the display to make sure the recorder is recording.

I know when I first started taping, I only looked at the recorder about 1 time every 15 seconds during the show. Of course the whole time I was thinking my croakie mounted SoundPros>MD source is going to smoke those fools over there running the Schoeps>V2>Apogee rigs.

[Fonky]

Thanks for the replies. I'm still looking into everything so all opinions are welcome. 

[tay666]

I know when I first started taping, I only looked at the recorder about 1 time every 15 seconds during the show.

Sounds like me checking the display on my DAT to make sure it didn't get turned off every time someone would bump into me on the floor.

[stevetoney]

Stealthing with the recorder in the shirt pocket works until you want to look at the levels or just look at the display to make sure the recorder is recording.

I know when I first started taping, I only looked at the recorder about 1 time every 15 seconds during the show. Of course the whole time I was thinking my croakie mounted SoundPros>MD source is going to smoke those fools over there running the Schoeps>V2>Apogee rigs.

Honestly, the whole thing about the D50 is that it has this awesome wire cagey type attachment that runs up around the mics.  It makes it so easy to snatch the recorder from wherever it is without touching any controls.  I know that the pocket isn't an ideal location, but my whole response was based on the fact that stealth taping ISN'T ideal.  If we're talking about perfect mic positioning, then we wouldn't be talking about stealth.  Obviously, the pocket isn't the greatest place and sure the mics may be pointing in less that ideal directions...but is a hat rig inherently any better for all situations? 

So, the PA might be up high in one venue and you position your pocket so that it reasonably points towards each of the up high PA speakers.  If the speakers are on the floor and your mics are in a hat and facing more forward, you go back a little farther so that they are reasonably pointing towards the floor speakers.  Point is that no rig will be pre-packaged for all situations.  I suppose external stealthy mics would be easier to position ideally, but it's stealth and there will be limitations to that technique too.   

Really, the only point of my initial post was to suggest that you shouldn't rule out the D50 on the basis of the assumption that the internals suck.  That's all.  Overall, having used both recorders, the D50 is a better unit and worth the extra money IMHO...but I'm sure you'd also be happy with the recording capabilities of the R-09HR, no doubt about it.

[Fonky]

the first step is to embrace The Dark Side.

I was born on the dark side. 

[Belexes]

Most tapers are snobs about gear and anal about mic positioning.

That's about 99% of the folks here.  I taped a couple times with the D50 internals, but most certainly positioned the mics towards the sound source and not shirt-pocket-up-to-the-sky.  If you are going to do that, the omnis in the R09/R09HR are a better option.

[rhinowing]

^^ agreed. I pulled some reasonable tapes with my R-09 doing the shirt pocket thing

[acidjack]

Again, I don't think I'm challenging the *quality* of the D50 internals. I am questioning the utility of pointing a cardiod mic at the ceiling (which is what you'd be doing in a shirt pocket), in any application.

I did think your recording sounded pretty good considering the positioning - and I agree that the D50 is a quality, solid deck.  But I don't think it's being "snobby" to suggest that results would improve *for the OP's intended use* with external mics that could be positioned properly.

But as my football coach used to say, "opinions are like axxholes... everybody's got one, and they all stink..."

Whatever.  OP, please read my responses and judge for yourself if the D50 will work for you and how you might like to apply it.  The internal mics are adjustable between 120 degrees incident angle and 0 degrees.  If that works for you, then there's a chance that the internals might work for you.  If it doesn't then by all means, external mics are the better option. 

Most tapers are snobs about gear and anal about mic positioning.  The general opinion is that internal mics on gear are garbage and, with every other deck I've owned that has internal mics, I agree.  I'm simply stating that the D50's were a very pleasant surprise and you might want to consider the D50 over the R09HR because the internals will give you a decent sounding option for recording that you don't have with the R09HR.

[stevetoney]

I did think your recording sounded pretty good considering the positioning - and I agree that the D50 is a quality, solid deck.  But I don't think it's being "snobby" to suggest that results would improve *for the OP's intended use* with external mics that could be positioned properly.

Thank you...you are right.  OP please disregard my previous reference to tapers being snobby. 

[Belexes]

This snobby taper has used D50 internals pointed towards the sound source and received good results, but in "open" taping situations only.

[stevetoney]

Most tapers are snobs about gear and anal about mic positioning.

That's about 99% of the folks here.  I taped a couple times with the D50 internals, but most certainly positioned the mics towards the sound source and not shirt-pocket-up-to-the-sky.  If you are going to do that, the omnis in the R09/R09HR are a better option.

I understand and basically agree, but as you've pointed out, it all depends on positioning.  All the venues I record at in here in Pittsburgh except one has the PA speakers overhead.  If I position myself near the front of the stage, set D50 internal mics at 45 degrees, and put the recorder in a shirt pocket, each mic will be pointing pretty directly towards each PA speaker.  Just sayin'. 

Having said that, yeah, there's no doubt that if the speakers are on the sides of the stage or sitting on the floor, you might want to take the recorder out and somehow stealthily get the mics pointed at the speakers.  I've seen people standing near the stage holding the recorder...or of course external mics in a hat is the most popular method (sorry to those that don't like this discussion being public...it's not like the hat is any secret or that there's anything legitimately illegitimate about using stealth recording technique).

[stevetoney]

This snobby taper has used D50 internals pointed towards the sound source and received good results, but in "open" taping situations only.

Agree...but that's also again why I posted that sample earlier...to provide an actual sample (rather than a taper debate) to help the OP hear what might be expected when perhaps a not-so-open situation is encountered with the D50 internals.

[jlykos]

Hate to rain on everybody's parade here, but I really didn't think that the internals on the D50 were all that special.  They were narrow-sounding and accentuated the high frequencies too much.  A halfway decent set of stealth mics (Core-Sound, Church, etc.) is far, far superior.

[stevetoney]

Hate to rain on everybody's parade here, but I really didn't think that the internals on the D50 were all that special.  They were narrow-sounding and accentuated the high frequencies too much.  A halfway decent set of stealth mics (Core-Sound, Church, etc.) is far, far superior.

Aargh.  Rest assured this is the last time I'll mention anything about the internals on the D50.        Never intended to imply that they were SPECIAL.  Only that they might warrant consideration by the OP as a potential solution to his near term issue of having to wait a couple months for a set of CA-14's.

[Belexes]

These mics would be great to get for your outdoor festivals:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=134813.0

Normally CA mics take weeks to make, but these are already completed. Mine should arrive any day now. 

[jlykos]

Hate to rain on everybody's parade here, but I really didn't think that the internals on the D50 were all that special.  They were narrow-sounding and accentuated the high frequencies too much.  A halfway decent set of stealth mics (Core-Sound, Church, etc.) is far, far superior.

Aargh.  Rest assured this is the last time I'll mention anything about the internals on the D50.        Never intended to imply that they were SPECIAL.  Only that they might warrant consideration by the OP as a potential solution to his near term issue of having to wait a couple months for a set of CA-14's.

I'm not saying it's a bad approach; it just may not be the most cost-effective one.  I think that a Sony PCM-M10 and a set of stealth mics would yield better results than just the D50.  The M10 costs less than the D50 and while its internal mics are likely worse, you would not have to worry about using them if you get a set of good, low-cost stealth mics.  I would wager a guess that a M10 + stealth mics (perhaps used) are equal to the price of just a D50.

[acidjack]

^^^ If wait time is an issue the turnaround from Sound Pros is more like 7 days at most.  IMHO their product is pretty comparable.

[NSL]

Anybody with a Tascam DR07 tried using the internal mics on them?  Might try them out until my CA11's arrive.

[nameloc01]

running on-board factory mics on any recording deck, from your shirt pocket,pants pocket,crotch,wifes purse...whatever...should be a "plan B"..

boggles my mind there is even a debate about this.

[Fonky]

Knowing nothing about all the different set ups before I found this place, I'm grateful for all the opinions/ideas here. In my original post I shoulda said I wanted to spend around £400-500 for the lot. Looks like I'm going for one set of externals (For now), the SP-CMC-4U with LOW SENS MOD, cardiod capsules, with the SPSB-8 batt. box and the R-09hr. I'll add to it when the money's rolling in instead of out again. Gotta say thanks to AcidJack for helping me out with allsorts. Nice one. 

[jlykos]

Knowing nothing about all the different set ups before I found this place, I'm grateful for all the opinions/ideas here. In my original post I shoulda said I wanted to spend around £400-500 for the lot. Looks like I'm going for one set of externals (For now), the SP-CMC-4U with LOW SENS MOD, cardiod capsules, with the SPSB-8 batt. box and the R-09hr. I'll add to it when the money's rolling in instead of out again. Gotta say thanks to AcidJack for helping me out with allsorts. Nice one. 

That's a nice setup; you should be happy with it.  Good luck with everything!

[junkyardt]

Knowing nothing about all the different set ups before I found this place, I'm grateful for all the opinions/ideas here. In my original post I shoulda said I wanted to spend around £400-500 for the lot. Looks like I'm going for one set of externals (For now), the SP-CMC-4U with LOW SENS MOD, cardiod capsules, with the SPSB-8 batt. box and the R-09hr. I'll add to it when the money's rolling in instead of out again. Gotta say thanks to AcidJack for helping me out with allsorts. Nice one. 

That's a nice setup; you should be happy with it.  Good luck with everything!

yes, i am quite happy with SP-CMC-4U after a couple years of use, i think the OP will be happy with them too. OP, shoot me a PM if you want my take on mounting these both stealthily and steadily.

[fmaderjr]

Stealthing with the recorder in the shirt pocket works until you want to look at the levels or just look at the display to make sure the recorder is recording.

Completely disagree. I've heard this before and I don't get it. How hard is it to open the shirt pocket a bit, look over top of the recorder and check the levels? You'd be seeing the meter upside down, but with a minute's practice at home, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Fonky]

Knowing nothing about all the different set ups before I found this place, I'm grateful for all the opinions/ideas here. In my original post I shoulda said I wanted to spend around £400-500 for the lot. Looks like I'm going for one set of externals (For now), the SP-CMC-4U with LOW SENS MOD, cardiod capsules, with the SPSB-8 batt. box and the R-09hr. I'll add to it when the money's rolling in instead of out again. Gotta say thanks to AcidJack for helping me out with allsorts. Nice one. 

That's a nice setup; you should be happy with it.  Good luck with everything!

yes, i am quite happy with SP-CMC-4U after a couple years of use, i think the OP will be happy with them too. OP, shoot me a PM if you want my take on mounting these both stealthily and steadily.

PM sent.