Topic: Upgrade From SP-CMC-2 Cardioid Mics

[naboo]

Hi,
I'm thinking of ugrading my mics, but to what is the question?

Here's my current set-up: Sound Professionals SP-CMC-2 Cardioid Mics - SP-SPSB-8 Battery Box (No Bass Roll-Off) - Edirol R-09 (Rec @ 24/48) - San Disk Ultra II Card

I mainly record loud Rock, indie, alternative type gigs.

Does it make a difference leaving the foam windshields on? (I usually leave them on)

I don't have a Bass Roll-Off on my battery box and edit & master the recordings in adobe Audition, usually the bass is quite high, any suggestions Cut-off 'On' or 'Off' etc!?

Any suggestions to improve my recordings would be greatly appreciated.

[adrianf74]

There aren't a lot of options out there that are worthy when it comes to mini mics in the cardioid flavour.  I've tried probably every known option except for the Audix capsules on a Church Audio cable but after many long discussions with several well-respected community members, I came to learn that the Audix Capsules <> AT853/c <> CA-14/c.

I myself have run all sorts of mini-mics over the past twenty years.  I've run Core Sound Binaurals, Squidly Diddly, CA-14 omnis, DPA 4061's and most recently Countryman B3's (in the omni flavour).  I've run SP-CMC-8 (AT-933/c) cards, CA-14 cards and am currently rocking AT-853/c's (SP-CMC-4's).  Out of all the mics I've run, I prefer the 853's because they have a decent lower end along with a better mid-range pickup compared to the AT-933's (and AT-943's for that matter).   I bought them because I can run subcard or card caps depending on where I am.  However, the subcard caps are no longer available from AT directly (they're now sold out) and the 853's are harder to come by unless you want to by the SP-CMC-4's from Sound Professionals and pay an arm and a leg.

With what's easily and readily available, I'd _STRONGLY_ sugges the Church Audio CA-14 cards as an upgrade for you.  As far as mini-mics go, there are limited choices available and I really think the CA-14's are gonna make you happy versus what you currently run.  Check the Yard Sale for a "used" pair or look in the Retail Space for a new set from Chris directly.  Best of luck.

[paulbaptiste]

I'd also recommend the AT853s as a nice step up from your current gear.  I've ran all the same mics as the other poster listed, accept to add i've also owned, still own the audix mics, and i can't comment on the other cap patterns, but the hyper are great sounding mics, far far better sounding than the 853 hyper caps, and i prefer them over any small mic i've ran.  Granted i don't use the church cables simply because i've never bought any.  But i think the 853's (which sound better than the church gear IMO) or the audix are the way to go... you can purchase different pick up patterns for either of those mics also.

[adrianf74]

Does it make a difference leaving the foam windshields on? (I usually leave them on)

I don't have a Bass Roll-Off on my battery box and edit & master the recordings in adobe Audition, usually the bass is quite high, any suggestions Cut-off 'On' or 'Off' etc!?

Forgot to answer these two questions.

With cards, windscreens are a good thing to use as they are more susceptible to wind noise.  If you're indoors, you might be able to get away without using them.

As for bass roll off... most mini-mic cards don't capture enough bass, anyhow, so it's best NOT to enable roll-off on a battery box/preamp if it exists.  I always do my tweaks in post as you can ALWAYS remove what you don't want but can never ADD what was never captured to start with.

[bryonsos]

Does it make a difference leaving the foam windshields on? (I usually leave them on)

I don't have a Bass Roll-Off on my battery box and edit & master the recordings in adobe Audition, usually the bass is quite high, any suggestions Cut-off 'On' or 'Off' etc!?

Forgot to answer these two questions.

With cards, windscreens are a good thing to use as they are more susceptible to wind noise.  If you're indoors, you might be able to get away without using them.

As for bass roll off... most mini-mic cards don't capture enough bass, anyhow, so it's best NOT to enable roll-off on a battery box/preamp if it exists.  I always do my tweaks in post as you can ALWAYS remove what you don't want but can never ADD what was never captured to start with.

Agree to all of this, but I'll go further and say ALWAYS use screens. Outdoors even a mild breeze can be heard as rumbling or phasing. Indoors, most venues use smoke machines that spew out vegetable oil or other chemicals, and some places still allow smoking. I'd rather periodically replace gunked up screens than either have to clean or possibly damage diaphragms that have residue. Plus, ceiling fans and vent ducts can cause wind noise.

[naboo]

Thanks for the advice, I'm going to try the Church audio CA 14s and go from there...

Are these the correct settings for the Edirol R-09 (Rock/Indie Indoor shows)
I use the Mic Input
My current Edirol settings are: AGC 'Off' - Ext Mic Type 'Stereo' - Low Cut 'On' - Mic Gain 'Low'

[hi and lo]

Agree to all of this, but I'll go further and say ALWAYS use screens. Outdoors even a mild breeze can be heard as rumbling or phasing. Indoors, most venues use smoke machines that spew out vegetable oil or other chemicals, and some places still allow smoking. I'd rather periodically replace gunked up screens than either have to clean or possibly damage diaphragms that have residue. Plus, ceiling fans and vent ducts can cause wind noise.

Windscreens are really only effective at *drumroll*... reducing wind-noise. They will not protect your diaphragms from smoke and residuals carried in the air due to the electrostatic charges involved. They might serve as insurance against flying liquids (e.g. saliva, sweat, or a thrown beer) and/or larger particulates (e.g. the lead singer's dinner), but won't provide protection against much of anything that has actually vaporized.

This has been discussed quite a bit in the past with a good link here.

[paulbaptiste]

Congrats the on the CA 14s!!  You should definitely hear a difference in performance.  What specifically did you not like, or hope to improve from your previous recordings?

[adrianf74]

Thanks for the advice, I'm going to try the Church audio CA 14s and go from there...

Are these the correct settings for the Edirol R-09 (Rock/Indie Indoor shows)
I use the Mic Input
My current Edirol settings are: AGC 'Off' - Ext Mic Type 'Stereo' - Low Cut 'On' - Mic Gain 'Low'

The CA-14 cards are easily available compared to the 853's and if you're not interested in changeable caps, the CA-14's will do you fine.  I prefer the sound of the 853's to the CA-14's but there are enough people in these parts that would go "the other way."

With your battery box (compatible with the CA-14 cards), and seeing you normall tape rock/alt rock/indie, I would strongly suggest you not worry about "Mic Gain" and just plug the mics into the battery box and use the LINE input (**NOT** MIC input) as you'll yield better results.  AGC is "ALWAYS OFF" and External Mic Type is irrelevant if you're using LINE in.  The only time I run MIC IN is if I'm doing a show that's not overly loud and that's rare.

Hope that helps.   And congrats on your decision.

[bryonsos]

Agree to all of this, but I'll go further and say ALWAYS use screens. Outdoors even a mild breeze can be heard as rumbling or phasing. Indoors, most venues use smoke machines that spew out vegetable oil or other chemicals, and some places still allow smoking. I'd rather periodically replace gunked up screens than either have to clean or possibly damage diaphragms that have residue. Plus, ceiling fans and vent ducts can cause wind noise.

Windscreens are really only effective at *drumroll*... reducing wind-noise. They will not protect your diaphragms from smoke and residuals carried in the air due to the electrostatic charges involved. They might serve as insurance against flying liquids (e.g. saliva, sweat, or a thrown beer) and/or larger particulates (e.g. the lead singer's dinner), but won't provide protection against much of anything that has actually vaporized.

This has been discussed quite a bit in the past with a good link here.

I won't argue, but this makes me confident that running with screens is better than without for what we do. Even if the improved protection is incremental, I'll take it.

boojum, electrostatic air cleaners work on the same principle as condenser microphones; both are extremely good at removing small particles from the air. Microphone windscreens are made from open-pore foam so the protection they give isn't perfect, but it's an awful lot better than nothing at all.

[adrianf74]

A pair of cards just ended up in the Yard if you're still looking.   Bean's good people.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160677.msg2021478

[bombdiggity]

Hi,
I'm thinking of ugrading my mics, but to what is the question?

Here's my current set-up: Sound Professionals SP-CMC-2 Cardioid Mics - SP-SPSB-8 Battery Box (No Bass Roll-Off) - Edirol R-09 (Rec @ 24/48) - San Disk Ultra II Card

I mainly record loud Rock, indie, alternative type gigs.

Does it make a difference leaving the foam windshields on? (I usually leave them on)

I don't have a Bass Roll-Off on my battery box and edit & master the recordings in adobe Audition, usually the bass is quite high, any suggestions Cut-off 'On' or 'Off' etc!?

Any suggestions to improve my recordings would be greatly appreciated.

SP-CMC-25's.  Especially if the bass is your concern.  They do a great job delivering realistic and not overbearing low end response.  They will set you back more than the CA's though (but you'll get them a lot faster if buying new). 

As noted use line-in (not mic-in) if the volume/your output supports it. 

You can apply an FFT filter to the low end in post on ones you've already done to tame that issue some.   

Windscreens should be transparent, especially with anything loud. 

[F.O.Bean]

If you need a pair of ca14 cards QUICKLY I have a pair for sale. I too would recommend the ca14 cards as well

[naboo]

Thanks all for your advice. I have bought some CA14's from Chris at Church Audio.

Would Low Cut On or Off make a difference to the bass response at a loud rock concert?
It's currently set to 'On'

I wanted to upgrade for better overall clarity for my recordings with the Edirol R-09 (24/48)

Thanks again

[acidjack]

Thanks all for your advice. I have bought some CA14's from Chris at Church Audio.

Would Low Cut On or Off make a difference to the bass response at a loud rock concert?
It's currently set to 'On'

I wanted to upgrade for better overall clarity for my recordings with the Edirol R-09 (24/48)

Thanks again

Turn the low cut off; reduce any bass in post.  The low cut on those recorders cuts way too much.

[Church-Audio]

Thanks all for your advice. I have bought some CA14's from Chris at Church Audio.

Would Low Cut On or Off make a difference to the bass response at a loud rock concert?
It's currently set to 'On'

I wanted to upgrade for better overall clarity for my recordings with the Edirol R-09 (24/48)

Thanks again

Dont use bass roll off on your recorder use it in post when you dump it down to your computer.

Chris