Topic: Taping in an amphitheatre - pick the spot

[Popmarter]

Hi all,

My friend and I are gonna record in this amphitheatre, what would be the best spot to record from?

Used mics:
- DPA 4060 (omni)
- Milab VM440Links (cards)
- AT's (cards and hypercards)

We can use a Manfrotto pole that we can hook on the wooden seats (as far as I can see now).

I added one picture from the front to show the used PA system (I guess it is gonna be something familiar to this).

grts
Popmarter

[perks]

The PA stacks are spread fairly wide so if it were me I'd go for spot #2.

Beautiful spot to catch some music.

Edit: Seeing the 3rd picture gives a better perspective of the width of the PA. I'd still aim on being in the center as much as possible.

[page]

The PA stacks are spread fairly wide so if it were me I'd go for spot #2.

Beautiful spot to catch some music.

Yeah, that vicinity is the optimum.

[deadheadcorey]

where is this venue?

[Popmarter]

where is this venue?

Caprera (=venue)
Bloemendaal (= city)
The Netherlands
http://www.openluchttheaterbloemendaal.nl/

[Popmarter]

Thanks for the replies sofar.

Is there anything to say as it comes to 2 (centre, just under the mixingdesk) compared to 3 (first row seating, mics pointing at one stack)?

To me:

2
+ "stereo"
+ ambiance
+/- crowdnoise (limited as we use pole)


1
+ "mono"
+ more upfront sound (?)
+ no crowdnoise
- people passing by

[page]

If you get more than 35-40 degrees off the center axis for a PA you don't catch nearly as much sound. So if you're going to the front row, you're going to the sides, not the center. (I'm still referencing that first pic is why I say that) Otherwise I think your assessment is correct.

[Chuck]

If you have access to the venue when a band is playing at a time when you are not recording, I'd take a walk around in that grand stand and listen carefully at various spots. You don't want to be so close that you aren't capturing the PA speakers. That said it looks like a good venue and you could probably make a good recording while centered anywhere in that grand stand.

[bombdiggity]

Is the usual crowd chatty/talkative? 

Since outdoors the reverberant sound may not be too heavy so you could get by with dead center in the back just FOB (2) to considerably FOB (5) as long as the crowd is quiet. 

On the other hand the first row is pretty far back itself, so I'd run dead center there with a directional mic pointed at the relative center of each set of stacks.  That would minimize the crowd.  If you can get them on a stand there that may help as long as it is not so high to be far above the direct line of the speakers.  Too high in the back may get pretty far above the direct sound at a venue like this. 

I'm a contrarian relative to many I think.  I never go any further back than I absolutely have to.  You should have less crowd and more immediacy/less mud anywhere close compared to being in the back.   

What do your ears tell you when you walk it?  Usually the sweetest spot becomes apparent pretty quickly if you can walk it a bit while someone is playing. 

Looks like a nice place. 

Thanks for the replies sofar.

Is there anything to say as it comes to 2 (centre, just under the mixingdesk) compared to 3 (first row seating, mics pointing at one stack)?

[flipp]

5

[deadheadcorey]

where is this venue?

Caprera (=venue)
Bloemendaal (= city)
The Netherlands
http://www.openluchttheaterbloemendaal.nl/

that sure is a beautiful amphitheatre. would love to see a show there! fwiw i would go with option #2

[trustthex]

1 (if you can get away w/ it) ORTF   ||  2 can't be bad either

I can't imagine there's a spot in that venue that sounds horrible.  Beautiful too.

[justink]

i'm thinking between #1 and #2, somewhere in the middle (is that #5?).  or #3.

that water pit sucks.

[Gutbucket]

5 - best safe bet, I'd start there in case you cannot walk around to listen and then move your recording position.
3 - may be better but only listening can determine that.
2 - safe but less-involving, unexciting choice.

[Popmarter]

Thanks a lot all for the replies. 

Seems like a lot of opinions and different views on on this subject!

We will get back after the show, halfway august.

[F.O.Bean]

I say FOB/DFC about 5-10 rows back

[flipp]

I say FOB/DFC about 5-10 rows back

aka #5 

[Popmarter]

I say FOB/DFC about 5-10 rows back

I'd knew you would say that! 

[F.O.Bean]

I say FOB/DFC about 5-10 rows back

aka #5 

I never saw a number 5

I say FOB/DFC about 5-10 rows back

I'd knew you would say that! 

Damn skippy. That's why they call me FOBean

[Marshall7]

Damn skippy. That's why they call me FOBean

I always thought that was "Fuck Off Bean".   

[_tunic_]

I once taped in a venue which seems to be quite similar OLT Rivierenhof in Antwerpen, possibly slightly bigger though. Never been to Bloemendaal though, only the beach once
During the support I was sitting centre in second or third row, but was surrounded by chatty folk. So for the main act I walked to the top of the ring, and sat right from the right aisle. Wasn't expecting much of the recording as my mics don't have windscreens. But there was only a slight breeze, and it came out quite alright. Had the mics clipped on my left shoulder, aiming at the right speaker stack, sort of.
I shared it on Dime in the past but it's no longer there, if you're interested I could provide it to you via WeTransfer.
It was Scala (can't find any vids of the show itself, so let's settle with Conan) 

edit:
oh yes, do not forget to bring a pillow, otherwise you'll get a hard ass....

[F.O.Bean]

Damn skippy. That's why they call me FOBean

I always thought that was "Fuck Off Bean".   

That works too

[_tunic_]

I completely forgotten that I taped two more nights there (Chelsea Light Moving with Gavin Friday, and Drums Are For Parade with Dinosaur Jr). But for those nights I was standing front of stage, in Antwerpen they often cover up the pond with a rooster and put plastic chairs on top of it.
I try to go there once or twice every year, but this year there's nothing interesting scheduled

[OOK]

Rent a SD788 and put a mic at each location and mix to taste.... sorry I couldn't resist.   

[willndmb]

5 too

[shownomarcy]

If you had a boat...   

(I'd check how loud is the crowd compare to the music and if down in the front rows whether sounds as good as up where the soundmen are.)

[aaronji]

Which show are you talking about?  Calexico on the 15th, I am assuming?  It's sold out, but, if I can scrounge a ticket, I could bring my 154B and we could put your Milabs on a bar on the center spigot and flank it with my omnis on the outer spigots...

[Popmarter]

Hi aaron, that is the show. Would be great if we can do a meetup! Make sure to get a ticket an drop me a line, you stil got my email?  Plenty of room on the mic-stand

[aaronji]

^^^ Cool!  I just sent you a PM about it...

[Popmarter]

We ended up on spot 2 (FOB with stand), which was excellent!

Some samples here, http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=164123.msg2054910#msg2054910

I suggest to lock this topic here and continue in the other.

[vanark]

I suggest to lock this topic here and continue in the other.

As the thread owner, you can lock the topic - you don't need a moderator to do it for you.

[cashandkerouac]

5 - best safe bet, I'd start there in case you cannot walk around to listen and then move your recording position.
3 - may be better but only listening can determine that.
2 - safe but less-involving, unexciting choice.

safe and unexciting (as it pertains to audience noise) sounds like a great choice on any night in any venue.  i would have gone with spot #2 as well.

[Gutbucket]

safe and unexciting (as it pertains to audience noise) sounds like a great choice on any night in any venue.  i would have gone with spot #2 as well.

Sometimes 'safe' and 'good enough' is valued more highly than 'riskier' but 'potentially great', and I have no problem at all with anyone making that choice.  If that's what you value most any night in any venue then that certainly makes the choices easier and I say more power to you!  I will also say that given my own motivations and values, the recordings I've made which I value most are the 'really great' ones often involving risky choices that paid off, which more often than not convey a tangible sense of audience excitement that is simply not present from a safer location back by the board or in the official taper section if there happens to be one.  But then I'm not a ‘getting the show recorded is most imporant' documentarian type.  I’m more of a ‘shoot for great or nothing’ recordist. It's conveying the magic and teleporting the listener that interests and motivates me to keep doing this and constantly working at getting better at it.  I'm quite glad we don't all value the same things.  It's a big diverse world and to each his own pleasures and rewards.  For what it's worth, your position is much closer to the majority on this and I'm in the minority, which is fine with me.

I haven't had a chance to listen to these samples yet and of course we cannot compare between the various locations since the recordings were only made in one of them.  But the point you raise really comes down to a few basic things: what you value most in your recordings, what risks you are willing to take, and what is achievable given the practical constraints and permissions and the degree of hardship you is willing to under go.  The correct answers are different for each one of us depending on perspective, capability, practicality and motivations..  and also the types of music we record and the venues we record in.

[cashandkerouac]

safe and unexciting (as it pertains to audience noise) sounds like a great choice on any night in any venue.  i would have gone with spot #2 as well.

Sometimes 'safe' and 'good enough' is valued more highly than 'riskier' but 'potentially great', and I have no problem at all with anyone making that choice.  If that's what you value most any night in any venue then that certainly makes the choices easier and I say more power to you!  I will also say that given my own motivations and values, the recordings I've made which I value most are the 'really great' ones often involving risky choices that paid off, which more often than not convey a tangible sense of audience excitement that is simply not present from a safer location back by the board or in the official taper section if there happens to be one.  But then I'm not a ‘getting the show recorded is most imporant' documentarian type.  I’m more of a ‘shoot for great or nothing’ recordist. It's conveying the magic and teleporting the listener that interests and motivates me to keep doing this and constantly working at getting better at it.  I'm quite glad we don't all value the same things.  It's a big diverse world and to each his own pleasures and rewards.  For what it's worth, your position is much closer to the majority on this and I'm in the minority, which is fine with me.

I haven't had a chance to listen to these samples yet and of course we cannot compare between the various locations since the recordings were only made in one of them.  But the point you raise really comes down to a few basic things: what you value most in your recordings, what risks you are willing to take, and what is achievable given the practical constraints and permissions and the degree of hardship you is willing to under go.  The correct answers are different for each one of us depending on perspective, capability, practicality and motivations..  and also the types of music we record and the venues we record in.

my use of the words "safe" and "unexciting" were borrowed from your previous post.  my apologies if i misinterpreted your post.  in my opinion option #2 was very exciting and not so safe at all.  option #2 was very close to a wide stage with PA speakers positioned to the far left and far right with little to no fill speakers in the middle.  i liked option #2 because it was the closest location to the band and put most of the audience behind the mics.  it was the relationship of the mics to the audience that made it the "safe" choice in my opinion, but this was not the safest place to get a great recording.       

i personally find the OTS to be an extremely boring place to record a show unless it's a very small venue (and if it's a small venue there usually isn't an OTS anyhow).  the OTS may be safe on some levels, but it's usually not the best location if you want to get the best possible recording.  i love it when i'm at an open taping show and the folks in the OTS are looking at me with this confused look on their face, wondering why i'm in that spot   

[Gutbucket]

my apologies if i misinterpreted your post. 

No worries, I don't think you did anyway.  I'm mostly just noting differences in taper philosophy and that there is no one perfect answer every night.

in my opinion option #2 was very exciting and not so safe at all.  option #2 was very close to a wide stage with PA speakers positioned to the far left and far right with little to no fill speakers in the middle.  i liked option #2 because it was the closest location to the band and put most of the audience behind the mics.  it was the relationship of the mics to the audience that made it the "safe" choice in my opinion, but this was not the safest place to get a great recording.

I think you have positions 2 and 3 mixed up.  2 is the top of the seating area farthest from the stage, 3 is closest to the band in the front row of seating, 5 is a few rows farther back from there in the middle of the crowd somewhere between 2 and 3.

Realizing that, it sounds like we are actually pretty much on the same page here.  3 is where I would most like to be assuming it all works there and the PA has wide enough dispersion so it isn’t too dull and off-axis like it can often be up front/center.  That position gets the most direct sound off the stage, has the most optimal stereo soundstage of both the band spread across in front and audience behind (I’m recording in surround so I like having the audience and ‘room ambience’ spread out behind the recording position if possible), and is in the region of good potential audience enthusiasm with less potential for aimless distracted talking.  That is my optimal candidate for ‘potentially great’ but risky location.

5 is far safer from a PA sound perspective since it is right in the probable PA sweet spot and not as close.  I called that the ‘best safe bet’ as a balance of all aspects, although being right in the middle of the audience it is ‘less crowd safe’. It also gets plenty of crowd enthusiasm, possibly too much depending on the crowd.

2 is safest in terms of managing a ‘rowdy crowd’ and probably the second safest PA bet.  It is probably less involving in terms of up-front sound impact and presence and audience enthusiasm and may be more susceptible to chatter, being in back.  It is certainly the easiest potentially good sounding choice and I may well have chosen to record there myself.  I should have called it ‘potentially less exciting’ than the other two positions and not ‘unexciting’.

5 - best safe bet, I'd start there in case you cannot walk around to listen and then move your recording position.
3 - may be better but only listening can determine that.
2 - safe but less-involving, unexciting potentially less exciting choice.

 

[spankee02]

this venue looks outstanding, good luck n have fun!

[aaronji]

^^^  It was a great venue!  Friendly, low key, and cozy.  Surrounded by forest.  I will definitely be checking their schedule in summers to come...

As for the spot, I am quite glad we ended up in location 2.  1 (front and center) would have been my first choice, but there were some practical considerations (like having access to a soundboard feed).  Not to mention some people were dancing in that area.  4 (side of the soundboard) would have sucked from a crowd noise perspective as the bar/smoking area/bathrooms/merchandise stand were directly behind the seating.  5 (center in the crowd) would have also been pretty noisy, as the most serious fans were really packed in there, and again far from the board.  With 2, we ended up having the board effectively baffle the bar/crowd behind us, were able to easily access the board, and were able to take up a bit more space. 

On top of that, open taping is really an anomaly over here.  As far as I know, we are the only three (I have never encountered others, although there are a bunch of stealthers).  So I think it is important that we don't generate any negative reactions from other patrons, and in spot 2 we were not in anyone's way or sight-lines.