Topic: Confused about equipment...

[Nielsen81]

Hi guys.
Well, I thought a lot about this, and now I'm asking or I will get nowhere, so you gotta cut it out in pieces for me

Here we go: When reading about equipment, I see people talking about recorders, mics and so on. Now, there's a few things, I don't know to much, if anything, about.


Now, here we go:
Battery box? Which one...or do I need one?
CA-9100 Pre-amp? What is that? And if I get one, do I need a batterybox then? What is it good for?

Hmm, I think that might be it, but I'll of course answer / ask when answers arrives inhere

Thanks in advance
Nielsen81

[achalsey]

check out 4 out of the 5 posts below yours.   

But seriously, I started by asking this too but its always a good idea to start with the "where to begin" forum, lots of basic info.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=35278.0

A battery box is exactly what it sounds like.  It is a box with a battery in it that therefore supplies your mics with power.

A pre-amp does the same thing but also adds gain so you can strengthen the signal.  (the CA 9100 is just one of the MANY types of preamps on the market)

So, are you getting into taping or just asking just to know?  Because there is a lot about to know besides that very simple answer.   

[Nielsen81]

Well, I taped one show, but thats 3 years ago and it wasn't my equipment (I borrowed a MD), but I'm planning to get into taping, so I wanted to know those little things before starting

As I understand, I don't need a batterybox AND a pre-amp, only one of them, right?

Thanks
Nielsen81

[fmaderjr]

What recorder are you going to use? That may help us give better recommendations.

If you have a preamp you don't need a battery box unless you want something with a smaller footprint for stealth recording. If you record only very loud stuff, you can probably make do with a battery box and no pre.
If you record a lot of quiet stuff, a preamp would be better than a battery box with most recorders because the built in preamps of many recorders begin to add noise when you have to crank up the gain too high.

With some mic/recorder combos, it's possible to make great recordings of loud stuff without either a pre or a battery box, but it depends on the recorder and mics you will be using.

[adrianf74]

Now, here we go:
Battery box? Which one...or do I need one?
CA-9100 Pre-amp? What is that? And if I get one, do I need a batterybox then? What is it good for?

Tonnes of answers to this in this forum ... if I got a dollar a day for each of these posts, I could retire.    [just kidding]

First, all of this depends on what you'll be recording and what mics you have/want to go with.  Secondly, the recorder (as fmadejr asked).

The Church Audio 9100 Preamp is a nice little piece of equipment for its price.  Essentially it allows you to boost the gain to your mics so that the recorder doesn't have to. . This will allow you increase the level of your recording more than your deck will without introducing extra noise (think of it like your stereo with no sound going through it... when you crank the speakers, some people can hear "hiss" or "white noise" - you're doing the same thing by using the recorder).

The battery box is redundant if you have a preamp, however - as fmadejr also stated, a battery box is nice when you want to go lower profile because you need to be in st***th mode.  Many of us here use both depending on the event and how tight security will be. Now that I own a preamp, I try to take that with me all the time but there are some situations in which the extra "bulk" is more of a problem than its worth.  With a battery box, you're using the recording levels on the deck to control how loud your recording is.  Depending on your distance from the stacks, you might "max out" on your deck and still not be hitting -6dB for peaks (this happens to me often when I'm using my Edirol R09).  This is where the preamp helps.

Let us know what mics and recorder you're looking at and we'll throw some ideas at you.

[acidjack]

If you are recording loud rock shows stealth and using standard small mics into any of the half-decent recorders (e.g., Edirol R-09HR, any of the Tascam decks, Sony M10) then IMHO a preamp is bulky and a waste. 

You use either a battery box OR a pre, not both. 

I would just buy a $39-$59 battery box and be done with it.  I would be very surprised - assuming you are stealthing loud rock shows - that you'd be able to tell much difference.  And the battbox will save you some space.  If you do a lot of acoustic shows, classical, jazz, etc. then the ST-9100 might be more your thing.  I'm probably going to get (another) one to run with my DPA 4061s, but that is for a specific application that is not stealthing loud rock shows.

Put another way, when I stealth with my $3500 DPAs, I just use a basic "battery box" (a Denecke PS/2) rather than even my relatively small Naiant preamp, because size is the most important concern.  I've stealthed with it both with the Denecke and into an Oade modded PMD660 and it sounds about the same to me.  Similarly, for loud rock shows, my DPA 4061s + battbox seems just fine to me.

YMMV, opinions may vary, and all that.

[adrianf74]

If you are recording loud rock shows stealth and using standard small mics into any of the half-decent recorders (e.g., Edirol R-09HR, any of the Tascam decks, Sony M10) then IMHO a preamp is bulky and a waste. 

You use either a battery box OR a pre, not both. 

I would just buy a $39-$59 battery box and be done with it.  I would be very surprised - assuming you are stealthing loud rock shows - that you'd be able to tell much difference.  And the battbox will save you some space.  If you do a lot of acoustic shows, classical, jazz, etc. then the ST-9100 might be more your thing.  I'm probably going to get (another) one to run with my DPA 4061s, but that is for a specific application that is not stealthing loud rock shows.

Put another way, when I stealth with my $3500 DPAs, I just use a basic "battery box" (a Denecke PS/2) rather than even my relatively small Naiant preamp, because size is the most important concern.  I've stealthed with it both with the Denecke and into an Oade modded PMD660 and it sounds about the same to me.  Similarly, for loud rock shows, my DPA 4061s + battbox seems just fine to me.

YMMV, opinions may vary, and all that.

In all honesty, I think it's pretty easy to bring a pre- (such as a 9100) and a deck with mics into a venue.  I remember the days of bringing a WM-D6 or WM-D3 into a venue and those things weigehd a tonne and were very bulky.

I know that it is easier to just bring an R09 or M10 with something like an Ugly Battery Box and some small mics but there have been times - even at rock shows - where I haven't been able to get enough gain from the deck (maxed out) and would've killed for a way of gaining up the mics more.  But I know where you're coming from when you say the battery box is "good enough."  I just know the OP might come across the odd situation where he wished he had the pre-.  And the 9100 pre isn't that big, either.

[fmaderjr]

In all honesty, I think it's pretty easy to bring a pre- (such as a 9100) and a deck with mics into a venue. 

I know that it is easier to just bring an R09 or M10 with something like an Ugly Battery Box and some small mics but there have been times - even at rock shows - where I haven't been able to get enough gain from the deck (maxed out) and would've killed for a way of gaining up the mics more.   

And the 9100 pre isn't that big, either.

Exactly. It's easy to stealth with this system if you know how and its a lot more flexible than a battery box. If not using a pre & you wind up having to max out the gain on your deck, you'd have gotten a better sounding recording if you'd used a pre. Of course if all you do is very loud rock shows you don't need the pre.

[adrianf74]

Exactly. It's easy to stealth with this system if you know how and its a lot more flexible than a battery box. If not using a pre & you wind up having to max out the gain on your deck, you'd have gotten a better sounding recording if you'd used a pre. Of course if all you do is very loud rock shows you don't need the pre.

Sometimes if you're in an arena/amphitheatre/outdoor setting, you can't get close enough.  And some music halls, even though it's a rock show, aren't overly loud if you're in the first few rows of the floors. Just saying that's it's better to be safer than sorry.  I was burned twice in the past two weeks while waiting for my pre-. 

[aaronji]

^^^ I don't know; there additional variables in the equation, including how sensitive the mics are and how clean the recorder's mic input is...Battery box > mic-in can be very nice sounding with the right combination of gear, and if it gets too loud for the mic-in, battery box > line-in should work well at that point...

[fmaderjr]

^^^ I don't know; there additional variables in the equation, including how sensitive the mics are and how clean the recorder's mic input is.

That's true, but Nielson81 hasn't told us his mics and recorder, so adrianf74 is just covering all the bases. If you have mics that aren't sensitive like (CA-14's  or any low sensitivity modded mics) and a recorder who's preamps get noisy if you have to crank them up (like an R-09, iHP120, Marantz 620, and maybe even an R-09HR) you MUST have a pre to get good results when you are recording stuff that isn't very loud like acoustic performances. With a pre you can actually get great recordings of quiet stuff with all these recorders.

I

[adrianf74]

^^^ I don't know; there additional variables in the equation, including how sensitive the mics are and how clean the recorder's mic input is.

That's true, but Nielson81 hasn't told us his mics and recorder, so adrianf74 is just covering all the bases. If you have mics that aren't sensitive like (CA-14's  or any low sensitivity modded mics) and a recorder who's preamps get noisy if yo have to crank them up (like an R-09, iHP120, Marantz 620, and maybe even an R-09HR) you MUST have a pre to get good results when you are recording stuff that isn't very loud.

I'm also speaking from my own experiences.  There was a post in "Tour and Show Information" about a taper who used CA-11's into his mic input and ended up with a distorted recording (at an arena rock show).  He didn't use a battery box rather MIC IN and was subsequently burned.  A battery box, at the very least, is a must.  A pre- is better.  But until we know more about the OP's gear, we'll have to wait.

[acidjack]

^^

Perhaps the CA-11 mics are extremely non-sensitive - I don't know as I don't use them. I can tell you from using CSBs, AT 853 (with the 4.7k mod), AT943, Audix 1280s on Church Cables and DPA 4061 that at any rock show of even reasonable volume, you absolutely do not need an expensive and bulkier preamp to provide gain.  I never (ever) have had to come close to maxing the volume on the R-09HR or the M10 (or the TCD-D8, back in the day) to get decent levels with mics and a battery box. 

If you have an extremely shitty recorder (any brand of Zoom, for example) then maybe you need a preamp.  Otherwise, if recording loud rock, while I understand the desire of people here to fluff both spending more money and spending that money on "home team" products, I'm afraid it is simply not necessary. If someone can produce an objective comp that suggests otherwise, I invite them to do so.  Otherwise, save your money.  My $.02

[Nielsen81]

Hi guys.

Sorry, I didn't list the equipment, I want to use.
Well, I would like to get my hands on an Edirol R-09HR or a Sony PCM M10 and a pair of CA-14. That is good equipment, I read
I don't know to much about good BB's, so I would have to read about that.
I'm mainly gonna record rock shows, but you never know if they are playing some acoustic songs in between, so it could be a good idea to get a pre-amp too, if that happens, I guess.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Hi guys.

Sorry, I didn't list the equipment, I want to use.
Well, I would like to get my hands on an Edirol R-09HR or a Sony PCM M10 and a pair of CA-14. That is good equipment, I read
I don't know to much about good BB's, so I would have to read about that.
I'm mainly gonna record rock shows, but you never know if they are playing some acoustic songs in between, so it could be a good idea to get a pre-amp too, if that happens, I guess.

Personally, if I were to run a Church Rig (and not have any other equipment) I would run: Church CA-14 (Card and Omni) > Church 9100 Pre-Amp > Sony M10. You can make very good recordings with that setup.

Obviously you've chosen wisely with the CA-14's. No need to look elsewhere unless you wanted to spend more money.

Since you want to record quieter music the 9100 is a good idea.

I would suggest the M10 over the R-09HR mainly because of the longer battery life. Both are good recorders. B+H Photo had the M10 on sale for $200. Not sure if it's still on sale.

[Nielsen81]

B+H? I've seen that name before, but whats the webadress?

[achalsey]

If you're a beginner and looking to just get your feet wet and still make great recordings (as it sounds like you're trying to do) go with the CA-14 card/omni and 9100 package from Chris.  This thread already has loads of good info but seems to be slightly off the point of "I want to record, tell me what to get."  The CA-14s are the safest, easiest here it seems.

You don't need a battery box.  Go with the CA-9100 preamp if you're going with Church mics already.  This way you will be able to power you mics more than sufficiently and add gain to the signal strength as necessary.  acidjack is probably right, if its loud enough you might not need a pre, but if you're already going with the mics its definitely a good thing to have in your "bag" just in case.  If its your first rig why not throw down a little extra to get the ability to add gain with the pre than just buy the battery box and be limited by what you have?

As for the recorder here is a discussion about the M10 vs. R09HR:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133149.0

To be honest, I assume most of the newcomers (like myself) are not audiophiles and don't do our research and most are looking for "tell me what sounds good."  Thats what I did (ultimately w/ the ca14s > 9100/UA5 > H120/r09) and am really happy with the results.  So, unless you're REALLY looking at the subtle aspects with what you get out of "budget" equipment, there probably won't be much difference between the M10 and R09HR.  Except for maybe the A/D conversion, many people will tell you a bit bucket is a bit bucket.  As long as it turns your wave lengths into 1s and 0s you're in good shape, so don't fret too much.

edit:  its early so I'm grumpy (sorry) but google is your friend:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

[Nielsen81]

Thank you very much guys:)
I now know what equipment, I should go hunting for

[Shadow_7]

budget and goals make a big impact too.  I'm not a stealth type, so I've got bigger eyes than I do pockets.  But I'm in the for long haul I guess and will likely sink $1K into my gear over several years.  On the pro-ish side, you need preamps, there's just no way around it.  They power mics that need power and provide a lot of clean-ish gain.  So you can record a rock concert, or a flute trio.  And get respectable results with both, even if you use all the same gear.

If you're always going to have I can't hear myself talk sources and proximity to them, you can get by with a battery box and mics that work in that type of chain.  If you want to stealth, it's kind of hard to lug a rack in and not get noticed.  So pluses and minuses with either.  I'm almost to the point of needing a golf club bag with wheels to haul my stuff around so go with what's best for you.

Simple setup.

Mics -> Battery Box -> Recorder


Not so simple:

Mics -> stereo bar -> boom arm -> mic stand -> XLR to XLR cables x2 -> Preamps x2 -> XLR to TRS cables x2 -> Field Recorder


Pro Simple:
- cheap (or not)
- fits in one pocket (200lbs+ so I have big pockets)
- runs for hours on a few batteries
- fairly simple to weather proof (one umbrella or one trashcan / ziplock bag)


Pro Not so simple:
- immune from cell phone handshakes (mostly)
- low noise floor so you can play it safe on even quiet sources and get usable results
- bought used, so it retains most of it's value over time.  And has a market interested in used versions.
- Can upgrade any unit in the chain with better gear as resources allow
  (new mics and stuff can make it a completely different ball game)


Cons Simple:
- limited selection of mics.  Most of which aren't really that good.
- limits in general


Cons Not so simple:
- heavy
- expensive
- risky
- any one part breaks (or not loaded) all parts rendered inert.

[fmaderjr]

B+H? I've seen that name before, but whats the webadress?

Type B&H into Google-it's the first choice that comes up.

You rarely should need to ask for web addresses here- in most cases if you type the company name into Google it's one of the first choices. If that doesn't turn anything up, then ask.

[adrianf74]

@acidjack: Not interested in a p*ssing contest.  I'm just stating from my own experiencs that, with the CAFS-OMNI, a battery box, and an Edirol R-09 (not HR), I have maxed out the line level input on my recorder MORE THAN ONE TIME.  That's why I suggest the pre-amp.  For one of those times, I wish I'd had the pre-amp because it would have given me a MUCH BETTER recording than the one I pulled.

@all:
I think the OP has made a wise decision with the CA-14(o, c) + ST-9100 pre-amp.  For the price, having the options of cards or omnis and a preamp for $300 is impressive (and I do like the sound of these mics better than other options I'd looked at in this price-point).

For a recorder, I'd definitely say get the M10.  It has 4GB internal memory (enough for 4-hours or so at 24/48) and an awesome battery life of over 20 hours record time.  If B&H still has it for $200, you're laughing.  I remember when I bought my R09, I got it used for around $325 - it was selling new for $450 here in Canada at the time.

Just remember to enjoy the shows while you roll.

[fmaderjr]

I'm just stating from my own experiencs that, with the CAFS-OMNI, a battery box, and an Edirol R-09 (not HR), I have maxed out the line level input on my recorder MORE THAN ONE TIME.  That's why I suggest the pre-amp.  For one of those times, I wish I'd had the pre-amp because it would have given me a MUCH BETTER recording than the one I pulled.

For recording loud rock, a battery box alone will suffice, but for maximum versatility a pre like the ST-9100 is indispensable.

All the Church Audio mics are not very sensitive, so when recording stuff that isn't very loud you may need to crank up the gain. Some recorders, including the R-09, can add a lot of noise when you crank them up beyond a certain point, so in these situations a good preamp can GREATLY improve the sound. Even with more sensitive mics and a recorder with a quieter preamp (like the M10) an external pre may improve the sound even though the difference may not be as obvious.

[aaronji]

For recording loud rock, a battery box alone will suffice, but for maximum versatility a pre like the ST-9100 is indispensable.

For maximum versatility, personally, I would prefer a pre with more gain than the 9100.  I tape a lot of quieter stuff and the 20 dB it provides just isn't enough sometimes...

 
Even with more sensitive mics and a recorder with a quieter preamp (like the M10) an external pre may improve the sound even though the difference may not be as obvious.

Then again, it may not.  Pretty subjective, especially since the pre will be adding it's own element to the sound.  The one-size-fits-all "CA-14 > CA-9100" doesn't work for all of the people all of the time!  Just my two cents...

[su6oxone]

B+H? I've seen that name before, but whats the webadress?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com

Great B&M (brick and mortar) shop in Manhattan.  Check it out next time you're in NYC. 

[fmaderjr]

For recording loud rock, a battery box alone will suffice, but for maximum versatility a pre like the ST-9100 is indispensable.

For maximum versatility, personally, I would prefer a pre with more gain than the 9100.  I tape a lot of quieter stuff and the 20 dB it provides just isn't enough sometimes...

Can't argue with that for those who record a lot of quiet stuff. I guess I meant maximum flexibility for a minimum cost.

 
Even with more sensitive mics and a recorder with a quieter preamp (like the M10) an external pre may improve the sound even though the difference may not be as obvious.

Then again, it may not.  Pretty subjective, especially since the pre will be adding it's own element to the sound.  The one-size-fits-all "CA-14 > CA-9100" doesn't work for all of the people all of the time!  Just my two cents...

Can't really disagree with that either although I can't hear it adding anything to the recording but gain. I really did mean "may improve" the sound (not will improve), but to my ears getting as much gain from the ST-9100 as possible is certainly not ever going to degrade the sound, so I go ahead & use it whenever possible.

[acidjack]

@acidjack: Not interested in a p*ssing contest.  I'm just stating from my own experiencs that, with the CAFS-OMNI, a battery box, and an Edirol R-09 (not HR), I have maxed out the line level input on my recorder MORE THAN ONE TIME.  That's why I suggest the pre-amp.  For one of those times, I wish I'd had the pre-amp because it would have given me a MUCH BETTER recording than the one I pulled.

The R-09 is a different beast than the -09HR, including having a much worse line level input from what I hear, so I am sure you're right that a pre is unfortunately in order with that particular deck.  Fortunately, assuming the OP goes with any of today's models that are decent, like the M10 or the Tascam machines (or the -09HR), the OP will not have the particular issues you have with the R-09.  For a beginner, and even now, I find dealing with an outboard pre (especially stealthing) to be a pretty annoying inconvenience, since you now have two level controls to deal with, not to mention a bigger box.  Hence the number of posts on here about "where do I set my levels on the 9100 vs. the deck", which are invariably followed by an array of conflicting responses.  People seem to be consistently confused about what the pre is supposed to do, what "unity gain" is, etc. etc.  In addition, I have always found that in the rare circumstances where I could not get decent gain using a 9v battery box, I could simply use the mic-in, as I did once when running 4021s>Denecke PS/2 (basically just the 48V version of the 9v battery boxes everyone uses with smaller mics, in that it provides no gain).  I did it mic-in for one band and line-in for the other.  Other than having much improved levels on the mic-in version, the sound quality was quite similar.  But again, this is with the M10, which is usually acknowledged to have a decent built-in mic pre.

[Nielsen81]

B+H? I've seen that name before, but whats the webadress?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com

Great B&M (brick and mortar) shop in Manhattan.  Check it out next time you're in NYC. 

Haha, sad to say so, but I never think I will be going to the US :/
I'm from Denmark (and heartproblems keeps me away from airplanes...just in case)