Topic: Microphone recommendation for recording rock concerts ??

[twalker]

In no way trying to talk anyone out of using Milabs:

The low-pro mic cable DPA makes to go with the new reference series helps --



Maybe not getting the 2011c into stealth territory, but makes them a lot nicer for low-profile FOB recording.  At $100 each, they are not at all cheap, but between the connector and the cable, that makes the 2011c or 4011c as low profile as it can get.

That said, I did used to stealth with neumann km184s when I had them (with a custom made set of mic cables that were messy as hell, but akin to the DAO4010 cables).

Wow!  Stealthing with 184s.  That's definitely an off board topic. 

Yep, those new DPA cables would help.  I figured a would use a set of stubbies still making the overall length of the 2011c around 4 inches.  The issue with the card capsule on the DPA is the twin diaphragm it is much longer.  If you were to use the wide card cap they are not as long, but then you are increasing the price drastically.

[twalker]

You already have top-flight omnis so you know what they will sound like. The problem is the 2011C mics are 3.6". Think about stealthing with that... If it's just low-pro work and not flat out stealthing, then totally buy 2011Cs, and bring them to FloydFest so we can swap caps for a set.

(but it's a valid Q, the milabs are nice, so are the DPAs as you're aware. I'm not sure one is inherently the clear winner here, it's a "right tool for the right job" question).

Absolutely!  Haven't confirmed FloydFest yet.  It is definitely a great show this year.

[aaronji]

The 4060 is spec'd at 20mv/Pa (a Pascal is 94db SPL), or about -34dbV.  The 4061 is spec'd at 6mv/Pa, or about -44dbV. 

If you expect a 124db SPL at the show (pretty damn loud), it'd be 30db more than the spec'd 1 Pascal.  So the 4060 without any gain from a preamp would put out -4dbV, and the 4061 would put out -14dbV.

A lot of recorders (at least on their line level inputs) and preamps can accept a -4dbV signal, so you wouldn't necessarily overload a preamp or recorder by running 4060s.  If you send the 4060s to a preamp in the above case and applied 12 db of gain, you'd have a signal of +8dbV sent to your recorder.  Even sent to the line level inputs, that might overload the recorder.

FWIW, I owned and used the 4060s for awhile and never had a problem with overload.

That's what I was trying to say in my previous post.  It can definitely be a problem with a lot of recorders, especially mic-in.  As an example, the maximum input level for the mic input on a DR-2d is -16 dBV.  A 4060 will crush that...

The only time I ever had a distortion problem with the 4060s was due to this.

oh, and I <3 this page.

Me too.  Especially that table, which I have referred to many times.  The whole site is pretty good, actually.  Sometimes the text isn't too clear (at least to me), but there are so many helpful calculators...

Yep, those new DPA cables would help.  I figured a would use a set of stubbies still making the overall length of the 2011c around 4 inches.  The issue with the card capsule on the DPA is the twin diaphragm it is much longer.  If you were to use the wide card cap they are not as long, but then you are increasing the price drastically.

Those cables are pretty cool, but they are quite difficult to unplug...

Really, it is only the 2011 cap that is unwieldy for stealthing.  And the 4017.  The others, with the compact bodies, are all 2.5" (a little shorter for the 2006).

[Teen Age Riot]

Re: DPA 4060s
I should have been a little more specific in my post.
OP says the mics will be used with a Sony M1 (DAT!). I used to use my 4060s with the MPS 6030 battery box (hence no gain) into the line-in of a Sony D100 which is identical to the M1 in most respects. Some of my recordings came out with distorted low end, mostly at festivals. Now, this was several years ago and I don't remember all the details (plus, I'm not a very technical person to begin with), but I was told back then that the distortion characteristics would point to mics and not the input stage of the recorder. I was also told by a FOH engineer that subs at close range were capable of more than 130db. It would have been worth trying an attenuator, but at that point I figured I might as well get 4061's instead and call it a day. I ended up buying MBHOs instead, but that's a different story.

[twalker]

Re: DPA 4060s
I should have been a little more specific in my post.
OP says the mics will be used with a Sony M1 (DAT!)

When I read the original post I read it as D1, I don't know why.

[thomasdrv]

I think I will go for some miniature microphones.
There are a lot of alternatives 
I see a lot of you people use DPA's.

[adrianf74]

I think I will go for some miniature microphones.
There are a lot of alternatives 
I see a lot of you people use DPA's.

The 4060/4061 omnis are a good choice when you're in a small club and can get up close; not such a great choice when you're in an arena/amphitheatre where you're forced to sit further back and not in an ideal seat location.  At that point, I'd suggest a pair of cards.  A few of us have asked and with cards, you're in a bind because there really isn't much between the CA-14/AT-853 options and the $1.2k-$2.5k club.  There is some work being done on running custom cables with a Tinybox with capsules like AKG and Gefell which will be a nice price point for those who don't want to drop $2-2.5k on a Schoepps active setup.

Right now, I've stuck with the CA-14 cards for these occasions because there really is nothing "in between" at this time.  There are mics like the Audix M1280C which, while are nice, it's debatable as to whether or not they're a "huge improvement" over the CA-14's (and they're between 2 and 3x the price as well).

Chris Church is working on a new cardioid mic design but he's stated the capsule size is closer to an inch so these will be more in line with the size of the "bigger boys" but it will be a matter of trying these out to see how they compare.

That's my $0.05.

[ilduclo]

another advantage to the dpa's is the stellar build quality. My 4061's were well used when I got them and I have used them another 7 years without problems.

[adrianf74]

another advantage to the dpa's is the stellar build quality. My 4061's were well used when I got them and I have used them another 7 years without problems.

That's not to say you can abuse them, either.  They're AWESOME little mics and serve me well as well.  Mine were ex-theatre and passed along through a few people and they've had ZERO issues.

[M]

Adrian,

I believe the Audix 1290/80's are a good in between mic and that was just how I used them.

My Beyer 930's smoke my Audix 1290's who smoke my AT853's.
    $1400                             $500                                        $150

Michael

[adrianf74]

Adrian,

I believe the Audix 1290/80's are a good in between mic and that was just how I used them.

My Beyer 930's smoke my Audix 1290's who smoke my AT853's.
    $1400                             $500                                        $150

All I'd like to know is, do the 1290's sound 3x better than the 853's and do the 930's sound 3x better than 1290's or 9x better than 853's?   

I was looking the the M1280's at one point but didn't see a 2x improvement over the CA-14's so decided to hold out...

[M]

I think they do. I wish I could have ran mine with a TB back in the day to save me the added challenge of sleping the MP2, but I did pull the heat with that combo. 

We could probably make arrangements to lend/borrow the Audix if you are curious. Or I could just send a couple samples.

I have regretted running my at853's every time since I bought the Audix and I have not ran the Audix since I got the Beyers.

[Todd R]

Adrian,

I believe the Audix 1290/80's are a good in between mic and that was just how I used them.

My Beyer 930's smoke my Audix 1290's who smoke my AT853's.
    $1400                             $500                                        $150

All I'd like to know is, do the 1290's sound 3x better than the 853's and do the 930's sound 3x better than 1290's or 9x better than 853's?   

I was looking the the M1280's at one point but didn't see a 2x improvement over the CA-14's so decided to hold out...

I think M pretty much answered the question, but then again, so did you.

Are the 930's worth 9x the AT853's -- yes for anyone who decided to make that purchase, no for anyone who weighed it out and decided against them.

Obviously a very subjective and personal question, and pretty much by definition, if someone shelled out for them, then it was worth 9x the price (unless of course they regretted their purchase).  Presumably as microphones that are designed to reproduce sound, then if they are worth 9x the price, they sound 9x better to the person who bought them (recognizing that there can be other values like small, active-style mics compared to full-bodied mics).

I own a pair of mc950's, which I guess were only $750, so not 9x a set of AT853's, but I also have a pair of Milabs, which were more than 9x the price of the 853's that I also own.  To me, they sound 9x better.  Others who don't feel that way probably don't own a set of Milabs.

[aaronji]

^^^ I agree; it's a pretty subjective assessment.  But even if there was some objectively measureable "sound quality", I don't know why you would expect it to be linearly related to cost.  I think for most products, the improvements become increasingly incremental as you get higher up the price scale. 

Plus there are a number of other things you might factor into value, such as build quality, customer service, available accessories, even name brand appeal.  Maybe there is another mic, for say $500, that somebody thinks sounds exactly as good as a Schoeps.  That person could well decide that the cost difference is the most important factor and go with the cheaper mic.  Or they might decide that the quality, excellent customer service, and enormous flexibility (in terms of mounting, powering, other capsules, etc.) of the Schoeps was worth the extra cash...

[F.O.Bean]

I'd look on the LMA and see if there is a microphone that stands out to your ears as pleasing. Lots of combinations could be put together for that amount. I'd consider a Naiant Tiny Box V2 as a preamp then you have a lot of choices, some that come to mind:

AKG C460's with a couple of capsule's
Beyer 930's if you like a darker sound
Busman LDC Stereo Microphone BSCS-L or his Active Setup
Audio Technica AT4051's

The Busman BSCS-L is discontinued for the moment. I have one of the VERY FEW around