Topic: cheap and cheerful stealth microphones

[mrblister]

I know I  am probably setting myself up to be shot down in flames....but has anyone here had experience or could recommend some cheap and cheerful stealth microphones.

The reason I ask is that I am a relative newbie and I use my beloved minidisc recorders as well as a Tascam DR07 to record concerts.  I started off with a Sony clip-on ECM 719 which gave clear results but quite tinny and usually needed a bit of bass boosting in post production.  Wanting to move up I now have a pair of Church Audio CA11 -  unlike the Sony these produce masses of bass but every single time produce muffled recordings that require lots and lots of fiddling around with equalisation to get semi-reasonable results.

I don't require the ulitmate in hi-fi quality just an easily managed clear reminder recording of a gig - any recommendations

(Virtually none of the gigs I attend have extreme spl )

[Church-Audio]

Where are you placing your mics? My ca-11 mics should not sound muffled at all.

Chris

[mrblister]

Hi Chris.

For sit down gigs (most of them) - often small jazz gigs - I wear them belt mounted.  For stand up gigs usually on my shirt collar.  I should probably clarify the word 'muffled'.  Its a massive over-emphasis on bass and low-mid frequencies that I feel swamps vocals.  They don't distort or anything like that (although, as I said most of my gigs aren't that loud).  So I end up in post production heavily reducing bass frequencies and upping vocal type frequencies, in fact a hell of a lot of messing about....what I then end up with isn't dissasterously bad although it isn't brilliant compared to other peoples recordings.

At first I thought maybe its my placement, or the sound quality of the gigs I go to but I dont think it is.  If I do a test where I record my hifi at top volume the Sony although a little tinny and lacking in bass produces a much preferable recording to the CA11s which sound 'muffled'  The results are independent upon whether I connect to my minidisc or my Tascam. 

If I'm using the Tascam 07s inbuilt mics on this test they sound (to my ears) vastly superior to both...although I haven't tried it at a real concert, I will next time.  I would still be interested in any 'cheap and cheerful' recommendations

[rowjimmytour]

Hi Chris.

For sit down gigs (most of them) - often small jazz gigs - I wear them belt mounted.  For stand up gigs usually on my shirt collar.  I should probably clarify the word 'muffled'.  Its a massive over-emphasis on bass and low-mid frequencies that I feel swamps vocals.  They don't distort or anything like that (although, as I said most of my gigs aren't that loud).  So I end up in post production heavily reducing bass frequencies and upping vocal type frequencies, in fact a hell of a lot of messing about....what I then end up with isn't dissasterously bad although it isn't brilliant compared to other peoples recordings.

At first I thought maybe its my placement, or the sound quality of the gigs I go to but I dont think it is.  If I do a test where I record my hifi at top volume the Sony although a little tinny and lacking in bass produces a much preferable recording to the CA11s which sound 'muffled'  The results are independent upon whether I connect to my minidisc or my Tascam. 

If I'm using the Tascam 07s inbuilt mics on this test they sound (to my ears) vastly superior to both...although I haven't tried it at a real concert, I will next time.  I would still be interested in any 'cheap and cheerful' recommendations

I don't think you need new mics I think you need to work on mic placement as in placing them head high. Having your mics at your belt at a sit down show or collar for a stand up is going to cause major phase issues w/ the seats in front and the people. Most find a hat works good

[mrblister]

When I record from my hi-fi there is no issue on placement

[Church-Audio]

When I record from my hi-fi there is no issue on placement

Recording your hifi and recording a concert are two different matters. If I only sold mics that sounded good when I recorded my studio monitors I would be in trouble. The SPL in a live event is much louder then your home stereo. You can not rely on that test. I also think mic placement is your problem if your looking for lifelike reproduction try my cafs mics they are very small, onsale and perfect for recording jazz gigs. I would also recommend my omni capsules for these mics as I prefer the sound of omni for jazz recordings in small clubs.


Chris

[chrisnubar]

it stinks that we have to stealth, but i agree w the others, not only placement, but the surroundings can mess with your quality. tie your belt around your head. just kidding. interesting thread.

[mrblister]

To be honest the being stealthy part adds to the enjoyment of the gig for me. Even more fun at small gigs.  I recently went to a Jazz Improv gig by a very obscure Norwegian band where the members of the band outnumbered the audience (3). ....actually getting a servicable recording seemed almost as mad and dangerous as the music.

I would still love someone to recommend some cheap microphones that might serve my need.


My very first gig I did with a mono clip on mic from Tandy/Maplin... the type used for giving talks...and listening back to it, it sounds pretty good. Maybe I should just buy two of them and see what I get

[nameloc01]

The best sounding stealth type mics...in no order

u853s
Churchs mics
Nevatons
Core Sounds
Sennheiser


There are more, but these are your best options.

[rowjimmytour]

No offense but again if you used Shoeps or DPA's and attached them to your belt or shirt collar it would still sound like ass

[bugg100]

No flaming here!

Check this thread out as well.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,122610.15.html

Your ca-11's are all you need. Practice placement at a show where it's ok to tape, something you wouldn't be at otherwise and then move your mics around the room in like 5 minute intervals....

Omni caps for your ca-11's are sweet as well.
Joe

[setboy]

What do you count as "cheap"?

[mrblister]

thanks for the comments so far. 

I personally don't think the 'problem' is  placement or room acoustics / sound mix.  Most of the gigs I go to are fairly well ordered, quiet,  affairs (small jazz bands, some acoustic type music and small amplified bands.Often with very few bodies around me)  All I'm after is a mic of similar quality to the Tascam DR07  inbuilt  but that is small / clippable and cheapish.

By cheap I mean less than £50.  Again, I'm not after top end hi-fi quality just something to get an audio memory that easy to manage.  The CA11s don't give me that - they require much more post production than the diagrams in the link above. 

[bugg100]

Research psycho-acoustics, if you can.

[sunjan]

All I'm after is a mic of similar quality to the Tascam DR07  inbuilt  but that is small / clippable and cheapish.

By cheap I mean less than £50.  Again, I'm not after top end hi-fi quality just something to get an audio memory that easy to manage.  The CA11s don't give me that - they require much more post production than the diagrams in the link above. 

Are you saying that you get worse results with CA-11 than the DR07 built-in mics??? 

Maybe you should look into the powering in that case. I don't know what voltage DR07 provides plug-in, but most mics require a battery box (or even better - preamp) for adequate voltage.

With proper placement and powering, CA-11 should be way better than any internal mics.
Search the archive for sources, there's plenty of proof out there...

[mrblister]

I am indeed saying the internal mics out-perform the CA11s....ofcourse that's only my ears view

If you like I can put up some samples somewhere. 

[fmaderjr]

Your ca-11's are all you need. Practice placement at a show where it's ok to tape, something you wouldn't be at otherwise and then move your mics around the room in like 5 minute intervals....
Omni caps for your ca-11's are sweet as well.
Joe

Maybe you should look into the powering in that case. I don't know what voltage DR07 provides plug-in, but most mics require a battery box (or even better - preamp) for adequate voltage.

With proper placement and powering, CA-11 should be way better than any internal mics.
Search the archive for sources, there's plenty of proof out there...

I agree with Joe and sunjan-the CA-11's sound great. However, and Chris Church can answer this definitively, I believe I read a post from Chris that said the CA-11's require 5 volts plug in power to function optimally. If this is true, all you need to do is to order a small battery box to power the mics and you're all set. I know your mini-disc isn't providing 5 volts and there's a good chance your DR07 isn't either. If the CA-11'a are not receiving 5 volts, there's a good chance that's what's causing the muffled sound.

[setboy]

Look into www.naiant.com. They might be a little bit bigger, but they might be whwat you are looking for.

[Church-Audio]

All I'm after is a mic of similar quality to the Tascam DR07  inbuilt  but that is small / clippable and cheapish.

By cheap I mean less than £50.  Again, I'm not after top end hi-fi quality just something to get an audio memory that easy to manage.  The CA11s don't give me that - they require much more post production than the diagrams in the link above. 

Are you saying that you get worse results with CA-11 than the DR07 built-in mics??? 

Maybe you should look into the powering in that case. I don't know what voltage DR07 provides plug-in, but most mics require a battery box (or even better - preamp) for adequate voltage.

With proper placement and powering, CA-11 should be way better than any internal mics.
Search the archive for sources, there's plenty of proof out there...

if your are using my mics with out a battery box or a preamp with the dr that might be part of the problem. the dr's built in mics are omni not cardioid like the ca-11 so you cant really compare the two it really sounds like you would have been better off with omni mics then cards. For the taping you do i would be happy to send you a pair to try for free.

Chris

[taperwheeler]

If you're happy with and prefer the tascam's built-in's, why even bother adding externals? 

[SparkE!]

 For the taping you do i would be happy to send you a pair to try for free.

Chris

Fixed that for you.  I'm sure Chris is not offering free mics.  It's the ability to try them that is free. (He'd loan you a set of mics.)

[bugg100]

I am indeed saying the internal mics out-perform the CA11s....ofcourse that's only my ears view

If you like I can put up some samples somewhere. 

Can we hear some short high bitrate mp3 samples? And are the samples from the same show and same placement? If they are same show and placement, then the diffrences of omni vs. cardiod can be understood and your woes troubleshot more easily.

Thanks.

[mrblister]

Look into www.naiant.com. They might be a little bit bigger, but they might be whwat you are looking for.

That looks really interesting and is possibly exactly what I was looking for..thank you...wish it was in Europe though.

Thanks for all the interesting responses - I think it possibly is a combination of not getting enough voltage and positioning...I will keep experimenting with them ( maybe purchase a power supply) Im determined to get it right

[Church-Audio]

Look into www.naiant.com. They might be a little bit bigger, but they might be whwat you are looking for.

That looks really interesting and is possibly exactly what I was looking for..thank you...wish it was in Europe though.

Thanks for all the interesting responses - I think it possibly is a combination of not getting enough voltage and positioning...I will keep experimenting with them ( maybe purchase a power supply) Im determined to get it right
[/quote

My offer still stands..

Chris

[bugg100]

Chris Church can sell you a power supply (battery box) for around 30US$, I think.

If you or a friend has a cheap multimeter, you can measure the Plug-In-Power voltage by plugging in a  male to male cable. Putting the positive lead on the tip and then ring of this cable all while putting the negative lead on the ground or "sleeve" of the TRS cable (tip, ring, sleeve). Read the voltage there....  Church stuff needs 5 volts, some recorders only put out 2.5 or so.  

If this is already 5 or greater, a battery box will not help you.

Look into www.naiant.com. They might be a little bit bigger, but they might be whwat you are looking for.

That looks really interesting and is possibly exactly what I was looking for..thank you...wish it was in Europe though.

mshilarious is his username on this forum...  Fairly active, he currently has a thread in the preamp forum. (A balanced XLR input pre so not applicable here...)

[Humbug]

I can lend you a Sound Professionals 9V 2-wire battery box (SP-SPSB1) if you want for a couple of weeks.

I'm in the UK.

Just check it's compatible with Chris's mics.

This ruddy battery box has been all over the UK in it's 7 years, and is indestructible. Not saying Chris's isn't the same..

[sunjan]

If you or a friend has a cheap multimeter, you can measure the Plug-In-Power voltage by plugging in a  male to male cable. Putting the positive lead on the tip and then ring of this cable all while putting the negative lead on the ground or "sleeve" of the TRS cable (tip, ring, sleeve). Read the voltage there....  Church stuff needs 5 volts, some recorders only put out 2.5 or so.  

If this is already 5 or greater, a battery box will not help you.

I dropped a mail to Tascam (the PIP is not mentioned in the specs!) and they tell me that DR-07 provides 5.4V to the mic.
This is in the same range as R-09HR, so theoretically it should be sufficient, unless you're taping very loud shows.

Maybe the internal gain is to blame for the poor results with the CA-11? I'm pretty sure the built-in omnis are more sensitive, which means they don't require as much gain. This skews the comparison, which Chris pointed out.

The OP would benefit from an external preamp like the CA-9100, no doubt.

[carpa]

I think that Edirol R09HR puts out a barely 3v as PIP. I mean, I didn't think it but read it somewhere on  the web, don't remember.
If someone has more precise information, please tell.
c

[sunjan]

I think that Edirol R09HR puts out a barely 3v as PIP.

5V, which attribute to its success with plug-in mics:
http://emusician.com/daw/review-edirolr-hr/

[carpa]

here's where I found the 3v stuff.  http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/recorders/edirolr09hr/index.html


Plug-In-Power

Open-circuit voltage = 3V

Source resistance [1] = 2.3k

c

[aaronji]

I have also seen the 3V figure.  I think from one of the recorder comparison charts and also from guysonic...

EDIT:  Sweetwater says 3V on their chart (http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/recorders/chart.php) and guysonic says 2.9V on his site (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm).  Couldn't really tell if they measured it or got it from specs somewhere...

[fmaderjr]

I have also seen the 3V figure.  I think from one of the recorder comparison charts and also from guysonic...

Yes-Guysonic tested the plug in power of the R-09HR and his site reports that it is 2.9 volts. This is odd because the R-09 provides the 5 volts needed by the CA-14's, DPA 4060 series, etc. It's odd that they cut back.

[carpa]

I find it is odd, too.   Unless the unit which has been tested being sort of defective on this sibe (but I strongly doubt...).
At this 3v point I don't think there is plenty of mics to use without a BB.

c

[GirthCoquer]

I've come out of the woodwork for this one... I couldn't be happier with my Church mics and pre. You can hear some of my recordings with my CA-11's ->CA-9100 on my blog http://invisiblesound.wordpress.com/  No Norwegian jazz on there yet, but a few Norwegian bands  Putting aside all the voltage issues, placement is absolutely essential to the recording.

[nassau73]

My budget really was very low to start recording shows here on Maui. While I would love to have a pair of Schoeps, reality (and my wife) dictated that the price needed to be kept down.

I found the Audio Reality Binaural mics and have had pretty good luck with them and a SONY MZ-RH1.
http://www.audioreality.com/

They come with a battery box.

John Ramsey is the guy who  makes these and seems to be kinda like Chris in that he's willing to discuss various aspects with you. He's a radio/audio engineer as his full time gig.

Anyway, I usually wear them attached to my eyeglass frames towards the very front of my face. The recordings are more "stereo" and better suited for speaker playback since I very rarely listen with headphones.

There are a number of shows up on LMA where you can hear samples.

Aloha

[fmaderjr]

Yes-Guysonic tested the plug in power of the R-09HR and his site reports that it is 2.9 volts. This is odd because the R-09 provides the 5 volts needed by the CA-14's, DPA 4060 series, etc. It's odd that they cut back.

I was wrong about the R-09 providing 5 volts. Chris Church later posted that it provides only 3.8 volts-not enough to reliably power DPA 4060 series or standard Church mics (that have a 4.7 ohm resistor).

[illconditioned]

My budget really was very low to start recording shows here on Maui. While I would love to have a pair of Schoeps, reality (and my wife) dictated that the price needed to be kept down.

I found the Audio Reality Binaural mics and have had pretty good luck with them and a SONY MZ-RH1.
http://www.audioreality.com/

They come with a battery box.

John Ramsey is the guy who  makes these and seems to be kinda like Chris in that he's willing to discuss various aspects with you. He's a radio/audio engineer as his full time gig.

Anyway, I usually wear them attached to my eyeglass frames towards the very front of my face. The recordings are more "stereo" and better suited for speaker playback since I very rarely listen with headphones.

There are a number of shows up on LMA where you can hear samples.

Aloha

Those are standard mics everyone is making.

I would put Chris Church (as well as Soundproffesionals and Core Sound) mics well above those in quality.  There are several factors, including both capsule quality and design/packaging (mounting, wiring, etc).

I'm not saying you can't build your own... I have.  But I would look at other options before spending hard cold cash on these.

  Richard

[MJ]

I should probably clarify the word 'muffled'.  Its a massive over-emphasis on bass and low-mid frequencies that I feel swamps vocals.  They don't distort or anything like that (although, as I said most of my gigs aren't that loud).  So I end up in post production heavily reducing bass frequencies and upping vocal type frequencies, in fact a hell of a lot of messing about..... 

Hi
Your response to Chris sounds interesting.  I guess that your ears have your own favorite sound.  Generally speaking many people like the FULLER and MORE DETAILED low-mid, which can be also translated as MUFFLED to others.  So if you want to have less low-end and clear mid-high, then I should recommend that you should go for AT943s (also known as SP-CMC-8).  If you really want go cheaper BUT more cheerful, then I recommend you should make your own mics using Panasonic WM-61As.
I believe Sound Pro or Audio Reality use Panasonic WM-61A or different model of the same product line for their own mics like SP-SPSB1 or Audio Reality Binaural mics. Believe me.  It costs you only $2~3 a piece.

One more, I would say I like Church Audio mics more than AT943s because my ears have my own favorite sound.
 
Koichi

[nassau73]

My budget really was very low to start recording shows here on Maui. While I would love to have a pair of Schoeps, reality (and my wife) dictated that the price needed to be kept down.

I found the Audio Reality Binaural mics and have had pretty good luck with them and a SONY MZ-RH1.
http://www.audioreality.com/

They come with a battery box.

John Ramsey is the guy who  makes these and seems to be kinda like Chris in that he's willing to discuss various aspects with you. He's a radio/audio engineer as his full time gig.

Anyway, I usually wear them attached to my eyeglass frames towards the very front of my face. The recordings are more "stereo" and better suited for speaker playback since I very rarely listen with headphones.

There are a number of shows up on LMA where you can hear samples.

Aloha

Those are standard mics everyone is making.

I would put Chris Church (as well as Soundproffesionals and Core Sound) mics well above those in quality.  There are several factors, including both capsule quality and design/packaging (mounting, wiring, etc).

I'm not saying you can't build your own... I have.  But I would look at other options before spending hard cold cash on these.

  Richard

Aloha:
Please keep in mind that this is still from a relative newbie.

As the original poster spoke about budget, this too was my concern.

I've listened to a few of the links I found at various places to hear the Church Audio mic results. When I listened, they sounded good. But they didn't sound so good as to disparage Audio Reality and discount them as summarily as has been done.

I haven't done spectral analysis, etc. I rely on my ears and based on your earlier posts, so do you. I also base my judgements on performance vs. price. Yes, I know certain mics will perform better but are they worth X number of dollars more?

As an example, compare Audio Reality with Neumann KM184's > Edirol R4 at
http://www.archive.org/details/dnb2009-01-23.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/DNB2009-01-23

The difference is that the Audio Reality mics were stage right and the Neumann's were stage left. To my ears, the Neumann's had more of a higher end but they also had more of a mid-range sound that I always found somewhat annoying about audience recordings.

If time permits I will have a comparison of Eddie Vedder at Maui Arts & Cultural Center comparing Schoeps mk5's with Audio Reality. The Schoeps mics were in row E and the Audio Reality were in row X. I will admit that the Schoeps sound great (that's why I lust after them!).

However, if you compare the price points for someone at my rudimentary level of recording and wanting to hear shows I've attended, I am extremely satisfied with Audio Reality.

To take it a step further, there are a number of shows I've seeded using Audio Reality and these are some of the responses (copied & pasted) received from downloaders at bt.etree.org and dime:

About a Sheryl Crow outdoor show from a downloader on the island of Malta:
as always great sound from nassau73.
thnak youuuu

About this year's slack key guitar festival:
BIG HEAD'S UP, fellow Dimers...if this year's edition is anywhere near the quality of last year's offering, GRAB THIS!  This guy knows how to tape, and the feeling really IS like lounging in Maui, soaking in this wonderful music and vibe.  To the taper and uploader, many, many thanks!!!

About the Maui Bela Fleck show last December at bt.etree.org:
Nassau73, I just want to thank you for a truly masterful recording of this AWESOME music! I* am making 50 copies for my best friende as Xmas presentd. Thank you for a true masterpiece recording. It is being spread to many people who dont know Bela Fleck. Conciousness is rising!!! Again, many thanks!!!!!

Anyway, trust your ears.

Aloha from Maui

[WiFiJeff]

I was wrong about the R-09 providing 5 volts. Chris Church later posted that it provides only 3.8 volts-not enough to reliably power DPA 4060 series or standard Church mics (that have a 4.7 ohm resistor).

The 4060 series includes the 4063, which will work with 3V (as will the 4073).  I am using it with the Sonosax MiniR82, which can't power the 4060s I often use, but handles the 4063s nicely.  They sound pretty much like the 4060s but have lower sensitivity. 

Jeff

[Church-Audio]

I was wrong about the R-09 providing 5 volts. Chris Church later posted that it provides only 3.8 volts-not enough to reliably power DPA 4060 series or standard Church mics (that have a 4.7 ohm resistor).

The 4060 series includes the 4063, which will work with 3V (as will the 4073).  I am using it with the Sonosax MiniR82, which can't power the 4060s I often use, but handles the 4063s nicely.  They sound pretty much like the 4060s but have lower sensitivity. 

Jeff

No the dpa 4060 will not work properly on 3v.

Chris