Topic: PT: 2 - New Marantz PMD661

[taosmay]

I have a new 661 concert mod deck and have a few SD cards with audio recorded on them. I have never before used recorders w/SD cards (or any other memory cards), and have never transferred audio from them to my computer (MacMini OSX). I may not even have a mac program to play them/tweak them yet...I guess I'll get sound studio, and something else... Once the 661 and mac are powered and connected via usb according to pages 35,36 in the manual, do I hit play on 661 to transfer the data to my mac? And does it just show up on my desk top, which I can then open and use later in a suitable program? Can someone walk me through the process, since I am not at all computer savvy... Thanks. I have used the line out on the 661 to listen to the recordings.

[bephillips]

When I first got mine, I tried to transfer via USB connection between PMD661 and the Mac, and I think I recall it not showing up properly. In any event, the easiest way to deal with getting files on and off cards is with a card reader. Make sure you get one that can handle the SDHC cards, older ones have a 4 GB limit on SD cards. These readers are available for $10-$15 dollars and typically read many kinds of memory cards. When connected with a card in them, they just show up as an external drive in the Finder.

The wav files, even high bitrate ones, are playable in the Finder quick view or iTunes, or othere popular players such as VLC or Cog, or Songbird.

I master my recordings with Bias Peak, but this is an expensive program. Audacity is free and open source and can do what you need, tracking, EQ, adjust gain, export regions to individual files, etc.

[bephillips]

Here is the checklist I use for mastering and seeding, raw recording to preparing and seeding the torrent. I find having a checklist allows me to do a good job without having to think so much, and I don't worry about missing some step. Also if my working on the show is interrupted it makes it easier to pick up where I left off. I'll attach as Word doc zipped and pdf. You can modify to suit your needs.

[DigiGal]

I have a new 661 concert mod deck and have a few SD cards with audio recorded on them. I have never before used recorders w/SD cards (or any other memory cards), and have never transferred audio from them to my computer (MacMini OSX). I may not even have a mac program to play them/tweak them yet...I guess I'll get sound studio, and something else... Once the 661 and mac are powered and connected via usb according to pages 35,36 in the manual, do I hit play on 661 to transfer the data to my mac? And does it just show up on my desk top, which I can then open and use later in a suitable program? Can someone walk me through the process, since I am not at all computer savvy... Thanks. I have used the line out on the 661 to listen to the recordings.

I have a PMD 661 and an iMac too, I found that I had to pick up an inexpensive Sony card reader because a direct USB connection between the PMD661 to iMac was too slow and the card reader in my HP Photosmart printer did not read SDHC cards.  By slow direct USB connection I mean the PMD661 showed up on the Mac desktop but it took between :20 sec to over 1 min to do so which was not very practical.  Using the card reader is essentially instantaneous.

I'm new to this type of recording as well and will be recording a full day blues festival on the 13th but haven't decided on which mac software to go with yet.  Currently leaning toward; Wave Editor but also considering Sound Studio 3, Amadeus Pro or even Audacity.  It appears Audiofile Engineering's Wave Editor works natively with Broadcast Wave files and and has the most sonic transparency of the bunch.  http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/waveeditor/techspecs.php

SRC Comparisons can be compared here --> http://src.infinitewave.ca/

Bias Peak Pro is too expensive for me.  Perhaps others will chime in regarding preferred Mac software. 

Check out Team PMD 661 board which seems to have been more active lately than this thread.

[su6oxone]

Can anyone tell me if the carrying strap that comes with the 661 attaches to those metal loops near the input meter lights and if it is long enough to put around your neck? 

Also, how does this compare in size to the 702/722 recorders?  Dimensions are 6.5/3.7/1.4 for the 661 versus 8.2/4.9/1.8 for the 702/722 so it seems not much smaller by the numbers, but anyone with both have thoughts about how they compare size-wise? 

[JasonSobel]

Can anyone tell me if the carrying strap that comes with the 661 attaches to those metal loops near the input meter lights and if it is long enough to put around your neck? 

Also, how does this compare in size to the 702/722 recorders?  Dimensions are 6.5/3.7/1.4 for the 661 versus 8.2/4.9/1.8 for the 702/722 so it seems not much smaller by the numbers, but anyone with both have thoughts about how they compare size-wise? 

yes, the carrying strap attached to those metal looped, near the LED meters, and it is long enough to put over your shoulder and the deck hangs down around your waist.  of course, it's also adjustable so that the deck could hang higher up if you prefer it.

the size of the deck relative to the SD 702/722...  I don't have any pictures side by side, but I'm familiar enough with the decks.  the PMD-661 is a good deal smaller than a SD deck.  the orientation of the deck is different from the 702/722, so when, carrying the deck with the included strap, the deck is only 3.7" wide (vs the 8.2" for the 722).  and it is also a thinner deck, 1.4 vs 1.8.  though it is a little "taller", 6.5" vs 4.9".  I know that's just the numbers which can be a little hard to picture, but I think that the PMD-661 is smaller than you're thinking.

[su6oxone]

yes, the carrying strap attached to those metal looped, near the LED meters, and it is long enough to put over your shoulder and the deck hangs down around your waist.  of course, it's also adjustable so that the deck could hang higher up if you prefer it.

the size of the deck relative to the SD 702/722...  I don't have any pictures side by side, but I'm familiar enough with the decks.  the PMD-661 is a good deal smaller than a SD deck.  the orientation of the deck is different from the 702/722, so when, carrying the deck with the included strap, the deck is only 3.7" wide (vs the 8.2" for the 722).  and it is also a thinner deck, 1.4 vs 1.8.  though it is a little "taller", 6.5" vs 4.9".  I know that's just the numbers which can be a little hard to picture, but I think that the PMD-661 is smaller than you're thinking.

Thanks for the detailed info!  It sounds like it would be a good stealth all-in-one.  I especially like the metal loops that you can use to hang the 661 from your neck, which also puts the gain pot in a convenient position and the meters also.  You can't really see the screen this way but you wouldn't need at all, just hit record and then adjust the gain with the pot on top and check the meters on top too.  I may get this eventually. 

[su6oxone]

I'd start with just the setting on the deck.  Keep in mind that if the gain knob on the 661 is at "4" or below, the analog inputs can overload, even if your digital levels aren't over -0dBfs.  So if you set the deck at -12dB, and you need to lower the gain knob below 4, change the setting on the deck to -18dB.  If the deck is already set to -18dB, and you still need to have the gain knob at 4 or below, then switch on the attenuator on the mics.

Curious about the 661 overloading the analog inputs.  So if you switch the deck to -18dB, how easy is it for the deck to get overloaded (e.g. because the gain knob still had to be set below 4 even at -18dB)?  I'm considering the 661 for stealthing but if this is an issue, even if only occasionally, then I probably will just stealth my 702 instead. 

Also, I read the old 661 threads and team threads but still not clear if the phantom only works with mic-in or if you can get P48 with line-in as well.  The pics appears to show the switch for phantom can only be turned on for mic-in and not line-in.

Last question, is whether or not the Oade mods (concert or warm) lower the noise floor at all or just the sonic qualities of the 661.

[GDfan]

I'd start with just the setting on the deck.  Keep in mind that if the gain knob on the 661 is at "4" or below, the analog inputs can overload, even if your digital levels aren't over -0dBfs.  So if you set the deck at -12dB, and you need to lower the gain knob below 4, change the setting on the deck to -18dB.  If the deck is already set to -18dB, and you still need to have the gain knob at 4 or below, then switch on the attenuator on the mics.

I learned this the hard way the other night at The Black Crowes in Utica. There was a light drizzle and I didn't want to fine tune the levels and keep opening the gear bag, etc. I figured I would set the levels conservatively and raise them in the post. I had the gain knob right around "4" and my levels were around -12db on the LCD display. I figured I was ok. I have heavy distortion on the drum kicks right around the 140-220hz
range. the mid and highs are fine. not sure if I am going to take the time to clean it up, or just write it of as a learning experience. I had the -18db setting on at the time as well. so I should have opened it up more and set the gain to 5 or 6.

[GDfan]

I'd start with just the setting on the deck.  Keep in mind that if the gain knob on the 661 is at "4" or below, the analog inputs can overload, even if your digital levels aren't over -0dBfs.  So if you set the deck at -12dB, and you need to lower the gain knob below 4, change the setting on the deck to -18dB.  If the deck is already set to -18dB, and you still need to have the gain knob at 4 or below, then switch on the attenuator on the mics.

Curious about the 661 overloading the analog inputs.  So if you switch the deck to -18dB, how easy is it for the deck to get overloaded (e.g. because the gain knob still had to be set below 4 even at -18dB)?  I'm considering the 661 for stealthing but if this is an issue, even if only occasionally, then I probably will just stealth my 702 instead. 

Also, I read the old 661 threads and team threads but still not clear if the phantom only works with mic-in or if you can get P48 with line-in as well.  The pics appears to show the switch for phantom can only be turned on for mic-in and not line-in.

Last question, is whether or not the Oade mods (concert or warm) lower the noise floor at all or just the sonic qualities of the 661.

I think the super lowers the noise floor, for nature recording enthusiasts.

the xlr inputs can be set to line in, mic in p48 off, and mic in p48 on. this pic shows the switch. the xlr line in does not have p48
edit: its a 3 way switch

[su6oxone]

the xlr inputs can be set to line in, mic in p48 off, and mic in p48 on. this pic shows the switch. the xlr line in does not have p48
edit: its a 3 way switch

Thanks, that's what I gathered from the picture but thought it was strange that  there was no phantom for line-in.  Anyone know what the reason for this is, and the sonic consequences (e.g. noisier, etc.)? 

[JasonSobel]

I'd start with just the setting on the deck.  Keep in mind that if the gain knob on the 661 is at "4" or below, the analog inputs can overload, even if your digital levels aren't over -0dBfs.  So if you set the deck at -12dB, and you need to lower the gain knob below 4, change the setting on the deck to -18dB.  If the deck is already set to -18dB, and you still need to have the gain knob at 4 or below, then switch on the attenuator on the mics.

Curious about the 661 overloading the analog inputs.  So if you switch the deck to -18dB, how easy is it for the deck to get overloaded (e.g. because the gain knob still had to be set below 4 even at -18dB)?  I'm considering the 661 for stealthing but if this is an issue, even if only occasionally, then I probably will just stealth my 702 instead. 

Also, I read the old 661 threads and team threads but still not clear if the phantom only works with mic-in or if you can get P48 with line-in as well.  The pics appears to show the switch for phantom can only be turned on for mic-in and not line-in.

Last question, is whether or not the Oade mods (concert or warm) lower the noise floor at all or just the sonic qualities of the 661.

Phantom power can only be used with "mic in".  The switch itself is a three position switch with the following choices: "Line In, Mic In, or Mic In with Phantom Power on".

in regards to the overloading issue, it's only happened to me once, I think it is a specific issue with very sensitive mics.  My beyerdynamic mics have a sensitivity of 30 mV/Pa.  That's a lot higher than most mics tapers "typically" use.  (for example, the sensitivity of the Schoeps ccm4 is only 13 mV/Pa.  What that means is that at the same sound pressure level, the signal coming from the beyerdynamics will already be more than twice as loud relative to the signal coming out of the Schoeps.  And the one time I that I did overload the input of the PMD-661, it was a very loud show, and even then, I just barely overloaded the inputs...  (this post has all the details: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,112681.msg1589945.html#msg1589945).  All that said, I have since always used the -15dB switch on my mics, and I've never had an issue since.  My guess is that with mics that are already much lower sensitivity (relative to the beyerdynamics), you won't ever run into an issue of overloading the PMD-661 input.

and in regards to whether or not the oade mods lower the noise floor, or just make it sound "better", I'm not 100% sure on that one.

[datbrad]

the xlr inputs can be set to line in, mic in p48 off, and mic in p48 on. this pic shows the switch. the xlr line in does not have p48
edit: its a 3 way switch

Thanks, that's what I gathered from the picture but thought it was strange that  there was no phantom for line-in.  Anyone know what the reason for this is, and the sonic consequences (e.g. noisier, etc.)? 

You will not find too many recorders, if any, that have phantom power on the line inputs. Just imagine the potential destruction if you fed 48V to the line out on a SBD (crispy  ).

Now, with so many new recorders out, some SBD guys are very wary of patches these days, because someone might accidently feed 48V phantom and fry part of the mixing desk.

Line in on the 661 is set at +4db pro line level, so the old tradition of setting a recorder to line in to allow more headroom (what I expect you are contemplating) would not work well with the 661, even if you could run it like that. When taking a normal pro level line in, the 661 gain knob sits between 12 and 2, which shows how much headroom you have and how much gain you need to use.

Good luck with your quest.......

 

[su6oxone]

Phantom power can only be used with "mic in".  The switch itself is a three position switch with the following choices: "Line In, Mic In, or Mic In with Phantom Power on".

in regards to the overloading issue, it's only happened to me once, I think it is a specific issue with very sensitive mics.  My beyerdynamic mics have a sensitivity of 30 mV/Pa.  That's a lot higher than most mics tapers "typically" use.  (for example, the sensitivity of the Schoeps ccm4 is only 13 mV/Pa.  What that means is that at the same sound pressure level, the signal coming from the beyerdynamics will already be more than twice as loud relative to the signal coming out of the

Thanks again for the information.  I would assume that the overloading issue is at least partly due to using the mic-in instead of line-in for running directly into the 661?  And that the mic-in is noisier than the line-in?  Sounds like an interesting all-in-one, and probably won't know how it really performs until I try it myself.  

[su6oxone]

Line in on the 661 is set at +4db pro line level, so the old tradition of setting a recorder to line in to allow more headroom (what I expect you are contemplating) would not work well with the 661, even if you could run it like that. When taking a normal pro level line in, the 661 gain knob sits between 12 and 2, which shows how much headroom you have and how much gain you need to use.

Good luck with your quest.......

I guess I need to read up, but can you explain what the deal is with the '+4dB pro line level?'  I searched and googled it but didn't find anything relevant.  Are you saying going line in with a +4dB pro line-in wouldn't be a great idea because the levels would be too low compared to a consumer line level?  Thanks for the info!

Edit: found this old DAT Heads newsletter from an old post here (thanks greenone!) that seems rather informative:

DAT-Heads Digest #711, Volume #2                 Tue, 16 Apr 96 02:12:04 EDT
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From: PBM%mimi@magic.itg.ti.com
subject: DAT tapers: BEWARE of brickwalling while taping live!!
date: Mon, 15 Apr 96 10:31:28 CDT

To: message to internet  M2I

From: Mark Powers          PBM

Subj: DAT tapers: BEWARE of brickwalling while taping live!!

Hi all -

I've been seeing more and more tapes with this problem lately, and am
convinced that it is probably one of the main causes of people's "auds suck"
gripes.  The problem is known as "brickwalling", and can induce distortion
to a recording that can range from mild to horrendous.  Apologies to
those of you that know about it, but there are obviously growing numbers
of tapers that don't, and it's important.

Brickwalling occurs when the output of your microphones is too hot for the
preamp you are using (either the deck's input or an outboard mic-line amp),
which results in the preamp being overloaded.  Most of the better condenser
mics out there (AKG's B&K's, etc) are capable of output voltages higher than
the mic inputs on, say, a D7 are equipped to handle. This will turn what
could have been a terrific recording into a mudbath in a big hurry.

Fortunately, brickwalling is both easy to spot *and* easy to prevent: the
name "brickwalling" stems from the fact that when this phenomenon occurs,
the levels on the DAT deck will typically go right up to but never beyond
a certain point, as if they're running into a "brick wall".  Note that IT CAN
AND WILL OCCUR WITH THE LEVELS SET *ANYWHERE*, this has NOTHING to do with
going over zero, which is *digital* distortion; brickwalling is *analog*
distortion, the same thing you get when you turn a cheap AM radio up too
loud.  You can get it with the levels set at -12, and it has nothing to do
with where the record level knob is set!!

So, for example, if you're recording a show and see that the levels are
always hovering right at or around -6dB and never go beyond it, no matter
how intensly the band is playing, it's a pretty safe bet that the mic
preamp of your deck isn't happy with what it's seeing.  In the worst
case, the recording will be unlistenable; in cases where the
overloading is bad but not severe, the recording will sound really good
during the quiet parts but will tend to get muddy-sounding during the
louder stuff.  So, for example, Fee will sound great, but the finale of
Bowie will sound muddy, garbled, trashy, etc.  As I said, I have been
seeing this on a *lot* of the recordings I've been getting lately, so
I figured a word to the wise oughtta make a lot of people happy. :-)

So how do you stop it?  Simple.  Most of the good condensor mics out there
also have attenuation pads, which will drop the output signal level of the
of the mics down to where your mic preamp will be much happier (as will all
of the people that listen to your tapes, including you! :-)  So if you see
this happening, all you've gotta do is switch the attenuator pads on your
mics to the "-10dB" position (make sure you don't hit the rolloff switch
by mistake!).  Note:  this will require you to set the record level knob
up significantly higher to get good levels, but your recording will sound
*tons* better.  If you do this *and* maks sure that the levels don't go
above zero, you'll be rewarded with much-better sounding tapes!

FYI, if you want to see what to look out for, play some of the
less-than-perfect sounding tapes in your collection while watching the
levels. Assuming that good gear was used to record it, there's a pretty
good chance you'll see the brickwalling effect.

Living up to my name again,
PickyBastardMan

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DAT-Heads Digest #715, Volume #2                 Wed, 17 Apr 96 13:12:06 EDT

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From: "Michael J. Shaw" <shaw95@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: SB brickwalling
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:59:36 -0400 (EDT)

That little note from a digest or two ago about mic-input brick walling
can also occur when one is patched from a soundboard.

All of the same "syptoms" pretty much apply.  The signal in this case is
overloading the line input as opposed to the mic-input.  It will be fine
in soft parts, but come loud parts it get ugly.

The problem mainly occurs when a deck with consumer level line inputs of
-10dBV is hooked up to a pro console that had +4dBu line level outs.
This has happened to me once before.  I had to learn the hard way.  There
was a bit of talk a while back about using attenuators and such, and that
can help with this.  I don't think that brickwalling was mentioned, though.

If you are taking RCA outs of a board, those are a pretty safe bet, but
be wary of 1/4" outs and esp. XLR outs.  99% of XLR outs are going to
have a nominal level of +4.  If you're coming out of a board with
multi-matrices, you might be able to get the sound person to back off on
your send, but always ask when in doubt.

If you've got a deck with XLR in's, you should be fine as they will
likely have a nominal input level of +4 (or swithable).


Learn from my mistake and don't let any more recording get ruined.


happy taping,
Michael


------------------------------

From: Gary Davis <gdavis@loop.com>
Subject: RE: "Brickwalling"
Reply-to: gdavis@loop.com
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:14:09 +0000

A much simpler way to avoid mike-pre-amp distortion is to avoid the
mike pre-amp.  If your mikes have their own power supply, and the
music is loud, you can probably go right into the "Line" input on
most decks and avoid this problem...