Topic: Upgrade from AT853? Stealth only

[scoper]

I've had the AT853 (from SoundPro) for 12 years, using with all kinds of different equipment. I've upgraded everything else over the years, but kept the mics. I have omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid capsules.

I've had great success with these mics, but I wonder if I should consider upgrading. I tape strictly stealth, in all kinds of different venues and shows, from non-amplified acoustic folk to stadiums. Think Loudon Wainwright to Bruce Springsteen, and you're in my sweet spot.

At one point I had them modded to 3-wire mini-xlr, then recently (during a repair) had the 2 wire stereo mini-plug put back on. I have never overloaded these mics.

Should I be happy with what I have, or look to get something else? I run these with either a battery box or small preamp into my new Edirol R-09HR. Price is definitely an issue, though I don't have a cap in mind - just want some opinions.

They must be stealthy, easy to use, and sound better than what I have already.

Any ideas?

Scott

[sunjan]

First question: which aspect are you not satisfied with?

I don't know what preamp you're running these with, my theory is that you would get better bang for the buck making sure that you're pre is top notch. Looking into the 4.7K mod is also worthwhile, if you haven't done it yet.

Since upgrading gear follows the law of diminishing returns, the more you spend the smaller the improvements get.

A few suggestions:
Church cards, although the difference might not be huge.
DPAs
...or would you consider even more expensive mics?

[scoper]

I'm just throwing ideas out there... I'm not really dissatisfied, I just have mic envy for the Schoeps and Neumanns, etc, and wondering if there is an in-between. I probably wouldn't ever give up the 853's, because they are incredibly versatile.

I usually use the cardioid caps... if I were strictly an omni's user I'd probably think about the DPA's, but they're rather pricey.

I know how popular the AT853's are, with I guess the Church Audio mics (which I have never seen or heard) a second choice in the same general price range. Having upgraded to the 09HR puts me in gearslut mode, and I'm considering my options, if any.

[Belexes]

A few suggestions:
Church cards, although the difference might not be huge.

There really isn't that much of a difference. It's a lateral move to go to Church mics from 853's.

[sunjan]

I'm just throwing ideas out there... I'm not really dissatisfied, I just have mic envy for the Schoeps and Neumanns, etc, and wondering if there is an in-between. I probably wouldn't ever give up the 853's, because they are incredibly versatile.

I usually use the cardioid caps... if I were strictly an omni's user I'd probably think about the DPA's, but they're rather pricey.

For stealthable cards without phantom, there aren't that many options above AT and Church gear.

I found two very similar threads:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,98023.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,75904.0.html

But you'll find that most suggestions involve P48 and at least $1300 for a pair 

Which preamp are you running?

[colargol]

Hi!

I did the same kind of research last year, trying to find a better mic solution than i had (I had/have Core Sound Cardioids), and was looking for something for doing stealth.

I was not able to find anything in a "medium price range", which would be USD 500-1000. So I thought, what the heck, I'm planning to keep doing this for many years to come, why not go for the upper price range...? So I got myself an nbox and schoeps mk4s (card)/mk41s (supercard), and the results I am getting are a lot better than what I'm used to. It took a little bit of creativity to make this rig stealth, but I've come up with a good solution. For this rig I paid USD 1400 and around USD 1000 for a set of capsules (2nd hand).

Good luck!

-Colargol

[su6oxone]

Should I be happy with what I have, or look to get something else? I run these with either a battery box or small preamp into my new Edirol R-09HR. Price is definitely an issue, though I don't have a cap in mind - just want some opinions.

If you're thinking about upgrading then I'm assuming you would like the sound quality on your tapes to be a bit better.  If price is a big issue, then I would say just stick with the AT853, any other mic in that price range will be a lateral move like others have stated.  Later on, if price becomes less of an issue, I would recommend Schoeps CCM4 or DPA 402x > Marantz PMD-661.  That's my dream stealth rig but will cost some $3,000 for the DPA version used and more for the Schoeps. 

Like colargol mentions above, another good and popular option would be Schoeps MK4 (or whatever caps) > NBox > R-09HR.  The MK4 caps would go for around $1-1,200 used and the NBox for around the same new (I think).  So for about $2k (maybe a bit less) you could upgrade from a decent stealth rig to a great one. 

[Scooter123]

I have SP CMC8's and was also dissatisfied.  Not directional enough.  Got the Schoeps and yes they sound much warmer, and are a tad more directional, but honestly, for the wad that a dropped, I bet I improved the sound only 10-15%.  And you need a bulky and costly preamp.  So Schoeps is not a miracle pill for recordings. 

In retrospect, a better use of money would be to upgrade tickets to find the sweet spot.  I'll match my CMC8's against any Schoeps if I can have an extra $50-100 for ticket upgrades.  In short, CMCs's at 10th row dead center sound better than Schoeps 15 rows back on the side.

The three golden rules of stealth recording:

Location
Location
Location

[Belexes]

The three golden rules of stealth recording:

Location
Location
Location

Very much so.  I agree on your Schoeps comments vs the AT's.  People just automatically assume for the price paid that you'll get nothing but pristine recordings.  Not so as I have heard some stealth Schoeps recordings that sound pathetic.

[acidjack]

I've had the AT853 (from SoundPro) for 12 years, using with all kinds of different equipment. I've upgraded everything else over the years, but kept the mics. I have omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid capsules.

I've had great success with these mics, but I wonder if I should consider upgrading. I tape strictly stealth, in all kinds of different venues and shows, from non-amplified acoustic folk to stadiums. Think Loudon Wainwright to Bruce Springsteen, and you're in my sweet spot.

At one point I had them modded to 3-wire mini-xlr, then recently (during a repair) had the 2 wire stereo mini-plug put back on. I have never overloaded these mics.

Should I be happy with what I have, or look to get something else? I run these with either a battery box or small preamp into my new Edirol R-09HR. Price is definitely an issue, though I don't have a cap in mind - just want some opinions.

They must be stealthy, easy to use, and sound better than what I have already.

Any ideas?

Scott

Ha - I have this same thought just about every day. 

I own both AT U853 (with the low-sens/4.7k mod) and DPA 4061s (currently in the shop....still..grrr..) and like you find that I am mostly having to go without a stand, whether "stealth" strictly speaking or not.  My AT U853s are into CMC-8 (i.e., AT 943) bodies with adapters.  I have the cardiod and hyper AT 853 caps, and the omni AT 943 caps. 

I think from an optimum placement, the DPA 4060/4061 are clearly better than the AT 943/CMC-8 omnis, so for close-in work, that's a legit upgrade IMHO.  Of course, once you're getting further back, I'm not sure you do a lot better with the DPA's than you do with the U853's, if not worse.

Another option that isn't discussed here as much is the DPA 4021/4022/4023.  They require phantom, but as I understand it you can stealth them into one of the smaller Marantz machines with the Oade mod (which I understand provide their own phantom and therefore don't force you into carrying a pre) and get pretty great results.  Once I have the cash flow, this is probably a route I'll investigate more thoroughly.  And I'll probably look at the Schoeps and Neumanns, as well.

But as other posters have said, for stealth, I'll put my 4061/AT853 tapes against Schoeps tapes from worse spots any day. 

[su6oxone]

I agree with the idea that an average mic in a good spot will turn out a better tape than a superior mic in a poor location.  But why not just compare the 'average' mics with the higher-end mics in the same location, because in that case the Schoeps are going to blow the AT853 and the other comparable mics away.  That's why I would recommend going the MK4 > Nbox > recorder route or CCM4/402x > pre > recorder if stealthing is all the OP wants to do and if he wants the best sounding results from whatever location he is in.  Of course, YMMV. 

[nameloc01]

Its all about what sounds good to your ears. Period. That goes for everything,..mics,pres,decks..ect. I like Schoeps,I don't love them..and I'm not sure they'd "blow them away"...any legit improvement is *very* marginal and hardly worth the extra....what..2k..? Seriously..I'd put the extra money towards more tix. But to answer the question...I wouldn't be looking for "an upgrade" I'd be looking for "a change-up", meaning something that sounds just as good...but a little "different"
Make sense?

[darktrain]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

[illconditioned]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass.   Most cases this is a nonissue since clubs have too much bass anyway.  I've got some samples at my website if you're curious, the same rig, except with 2k2 mod.

Oh yeah, omni vs. cardioid.  I'd take an excellent omni (Countryman B3, Sennheiser KE4) over a card in (almost) all instances.  Unless someone is talking directly behind or beside you, and doing that continuously to ruin the show, I find the omnis are OK.  Notice I didn't say DPA406x.  For some reason I don't always like these omni recordings.  Can't explain why though.

  Richard

[M]

audix 1290!

[su6oxone]

Its all about what sounds good to your ears. Period. That goes for everything,..mics,pres,decks..ect. I like Schoeps,I don't love them..and I'm not sure they'd "blow them away"...any legit improvement is *very* marginal and hardly worth the extra....what..2k..? Seriously..I'd put the extra money towards more tix. But to answer the question...I wouldn't be looking for "an upgrade" I'd be looking for "a change-up", meaning something that sounds just as good...but a little "different"
Make sense?

Yeah I probably shouldn't have said that the Schoeps and DPAs would blow away any other mics, it's annoying when people do that.  In any case, the best tape I have heard yet from the NIN/JA tour is the Street Sweeper Social Club that someone taped in Michigan with AT853s.

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=252404

[scoper]

But why not just compare the 'average' mics with the higher-end mics in the same location, because in that case the Schoeps are going to blow the AT853 and the other comparable mics away. 

I actually did EXACTLY that - I recently taped a show with two rigs: An arena show, with my seats rear-stage, between the stacks. Ideal location.

1. AT853 > attenuator > Microtrak2496 (mic in) 24bit/44.1
2. Schoeps MK4 > CMC5 > Sound Devices 744T (24 bit / 88.2KHz)

The mics were mounted right next to each other in a hat used for stealthing.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that while the Schoeps do sound better, they don't sound 10+ times better, which their cost would suggest. So I'm not necessarily looking for a major upgrade, and I'm certainly not looking to spend Schoeps or Neumann money. I was hoping for something in the $500 - $600 range that would add some depth and finer detail that the AT's can't quite muster. The law of diminishing returns, as someone quoted.

So okay, I'll accept that I don't have a great alternative and enjoy the tapes I get with this wonderful gear, and remind myself that "field" recordings this good were'nt even possible very many years ago.

[rjp]

So okay, I'll accept that I don't have a great alternative and enjoy the tapes I get with this wonderful gear, and remind myself that "field" recordings this good were'nt even possible very many years ago.

Indeed, it amazes me how today's $200-$600 gizmos can pull stunning recordings and fit in a shirt pocket. Twenty years ago, a recorder the size of an R-09HR or LS-10 used microcassettes and was barely suitable for speech, let alone music. Now, that sort of size will give you a recorder that can do justice to classical. Of course, a lot still depends on how you deploy it, but you don't need to spend massive amounts to get very pleasing results.

[MJ]

audix 1290!

I second that!!!  After I tried AT943s, OKM-ROCK , AT853s, Church Audio Mics + Pre, DPA4061, finally I found what I wanted; Audix M1280 + Fostex FR-2LE-Oade HD Mod.  At least for a while I guess that I can stop looking for a better gear

[sunjan]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

[MJ]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html

I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

[fmaderjr]

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

To me, they're not worth the extra money. I've made great recordings with both, but the CA-14's are much cheaper plus you do need to get the 4.7 mod for the HLSC's to be reliable recording at high sound pressure levels. Both sound great but the CA-14's may have a tad more bass.

[darktrain]

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

To me, they're not worth the extra money. I've made great recordings with both, but the CA-14's are much cheaper plus you do need to get the 4.7 mod for the HLSC's to be reliable recording at high sound pressure levels. Both sound great but the CA-14's may have a tad more bass.

Personally I like the HLSC's(4.7k mod) because i can go mic in on the marantz pmd620 for loud shows and i use the 9100 for qiet stuff but going mic in for the loud stuff makes a great small profile setup

[acidjack]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html

I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Thanks for the link to the other post on the 1290s.  I had never heard of these until this post.  Interesting.  I'm assuming (without us going into too much detail on sensitive topics in public) you run them in a hat?  And you're running them into a PMD 660 with Oade mod?  Frankly, I usually 'stealth' only because the venues I go to dislike stands, not because the band/security really cares, so this could work for me. 

Is there a good retailer that sells these mics?  I noticed from a quick Google search that it seems the stock mic comes with 25ft cables, which is way too much for self-mounting.  Can they be purchased with shorter cables? 

Finally, does anyone have any opinions on the Audix 1290s vs. DPA 4022?

[illconditioned]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

And is Audix really regarded as a significant improvement over AT853 or CA-14? The downside here is phantom only, meaning bulkier powering/less stealthable.

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

[M]

Finally, does anyone have any opinions on the Audix 1290s vs. DPA 4022?

I think the 4022's sound quite a bit different, they are more comparable to the akg 480's, from what I've heard.  They definitely smoke any cardiod lavalier mic I've heard. 

All imo of course.

I ran my at's for the first time in over a year the other night and am regretting it now.

[su6oxone]

Audix m1290 > PMD 661 seems like a good, non-bulky solution for about a grand (or less?).  I've liked what I've heard of the Audix on LMA.

[scoper]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

If I'm reading you correctly, they're not really a clear upgrade from the 853's, just a lateral move to a somewhat better sound. I would gain that, and lose the flexibility of multiple cap patterns.

SoundPro offers the 4.7k mod for the AT853's, which I have not had done. I generally don't go to ear-splittingly loud shows and have never overloaded the 853s. I've always been tempted to buy a small db meter from Radio Shack and measure the SPL at a "loud" show. It also has to do with location - I'm never close to the stacks, and being half an arena away at a rock show won't be enough to put it over the top.

[illconditioned]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

If I'm reading you correctly, they're not really a clear upgrade from the 853's, just a lateral move to a somewhat better sound. I would gain that, and lose the flexibility of multiple cap patterns.

SoundPro offers the 4.7k mod for the AT853's, which I have not had done. I generally don't go to ear-splittingly loud shows and have never overloaded the 853s. I've always been tempted to buy a small db meter from Radio Shack and measure the SPL at a "loud" show. It also has to do with location - I'm never close to the stacks, and being half an arena away at a rock show won't be enough to put it over the top.

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite.  Very pleasing sound and nice detail.  They remind me *a bit* of the Neumann KM184 sound, although not as good, of course.

The question is, are MKE40 enough of an improvement to justify the price (and limitation of cardioid only caps).  *If* I used cards a lot, I would say yes.  But I'm mostly using omnis now, so I rarely use my pair.

  Richard

[acidjack]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Again, I stongly recommend (great sounding) omnis if you can get away with it.

  Richard

If I'm reading you correctly, they're not really a clear upgrade from the 853's, just a lateral move to a somewhat better sound. I would gain that, and lose the flexibility of multiple cap patterns.

SoundPro offers the 4.7k mod for the AT853's, which I have not had done. I generally don't go to ear-splittingly loud shows and have never overloaded the 853s. I've always been tempted to buy a small db meter from Radio Shack and measure the SPL at a "loud" show. It also has to do with location - I'm never close to the stacks, and being half an arena away at a rock show won't be enough to put it over the top.

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite.  Very pleasing sound and nice detail.  They remind me *a bit* of the Neumann KM184 sound, although not as good, of course.

The question is, are MKE40 enough of an improvement to justify the price (and limitation of cardioid only caps).  *If* I used cards a lot, I would say yes.  But I'm mostly using omnis now, so I rarely use my pair.

  Richard

So it sounds like, to summarize this thread, and taking personal opinion into account, the ranks (cards only; I'll exclude omnis since that is a whole different beast) might go something like:

DPA 4022 > Audix 1280/1290 > Senn MKE40 aka HLSC > AT 853 and CA-14's > everything else

Is that a fair statement?   

I'm feeling mighty tempted by the prospect of these Audix.  Was going to save my pennies for 4022's (and probably still will) but seems like a potentially useful interim upgrade.

[edtyre]

I was at the same crossroads a couple of years ago when
running at853rx>ps2>minidisc. When i was in the sweet spot this
rig made excellent tapes, just not killer ones. I was happy for a long time.

The problem is...... there is no in-betweener card for stealth. Stick with the AT's
until you get 4023's or mk-4/ccm4  just be careful about your location 

[su6oxone]

The problem is...... there is no in-betweener card for stealth. Stick with the AT's
until you get 4023's or mk-4/ccm4  just be careful about your location 

QFT.  That's good advice. 

[sunjan]

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite. 

Talking about Shure, I noticed that there are a few stealthy cardioids that theoretically are suited for taping. But I guess they aren't popular because they're overpriced?
MX202B/C - street price: $160 ea.
MX185 (or MX184 for supercard)  - street price: $170 ea.
MC51B - street price: $300 ea.

I noticed the cheaper of the Shure cards only offer 50-17,000Hz, and the response isn't very flat. I guess they're mainly for voice recording.

Regarding Audix, there are a few different models in the M12xx range, not just 1280/1290. I was reading the specs, but I couldn't make out the differences. Same size, response, range. Only differences are shielding and max SPL?
http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/the_micros.shtml
What about M125x/M124x, would any of them work in a concert setting?

Another cardiod that was mentioned recently is Line Audio CM3. Don't know if they're considered stealthy, the dimensions are 77 x 20mm:
http://www.lineaudio.se/linemicdata.htm

Retailing at $115 ea, they seem like good value to me, if you can mount them safely and get away with it?!

Thinking about it, Franken-naks (chopped) are about the same size as Line Audio CM3 and should probably qualify here too, even though they're only found used.

Acidjack, I like your grading...    Don't know if you can fit in all these models in your ranking system?

[acidjack]

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite. 

Talking about Shure, I noticed that there are a few stealthy cardioids that theoretically are suited for taping. But I guess they aren't popular because they're overpriced?
MX202B/C - street price: $160 ea.
MX185 (or MX184 for supercard)  - street price: $170 ea.
MC51B - street price: $300 ea.

I noticed the cheaper of the Shure cards only offer 50-17,000Hz, and the response isn't very flat. I guess they're mainly for voice recording.

Regarding Audix, there are a few different models in the M12xx range, not just 1280/1290. I was reading the specs, but I couldn't make out the differences. Same size, response, range. Only differences are shielding and max SPL?
http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/the_micros.shtml
What about M125x/M124x, would any of them work in a concert setting?

Another cardiod that was mentioned recently is Line Audio CM3. Don't know if they're considered stealthy, the dimensions are 77 x 20mm:
http://www.lineaudio.se/linemicdata.htm

Retailing at $115 ea, they seem like good value to me, if you can mount them safely and get away with it?!

Thinking about it, Franken-naks (chopped) are about the same size as Line Audio CM3 and should probably qualify here too, even though they're only found used.

Acidjack, I like your grading...    Don't know if you can fit in all these models in your ranking system?

Ha, I probably could if I'd even heard half of the ones you just listed     Those Shure MC51B are interesting. 

After listening to some Audix recordings on the LMA, I am at least somewhat convinced these could be a real interim upgrade from the AT's.  Based on what I've heard of the HLSC's, I can see what some people prefer about them, but personally, based on what I have heard, I wouldn't trade my AT's for those, regardless of price.  Of course, it is hard to base any judgment on what's in the LMA, too, as that isn't controlled for venue or placement.  But the 'optimal' sounding Audix tape on there that I believe is stealth or non-stand (the Gomez recording) is to my ears better than what I get out of the AT's, with a fuller low-end and more detail.  There are also some awful recordings with the Audix, which I'd attribute to venue as much as anything else, as they sound very distant.

So it still seems that basically, there is the $3000 range of Schoeps/DPA 4021, then the ~$700 Audix 1290/1280 (plus either a power supply or a phantom-powered deck), then CA 14/AT 853 then everything else that is cheaper than those two. 

[aaronji]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html

I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

So it still seems that basically, there is the $3000 range of Schoeps/DPA 4021, then the ~$700 Audix 1290/1280 (plus either a power supply or a phantom-powered deck), then CA 14/AT 853 then everything else that is cheaper than those two. 

I really love the sound of those DPA compacts, but the tax is pretty steep, huh?  I started a "DPA Fund", but I keep dipping into it for concert tickets and other necessities...Not to mention how hard it is to convince the significant other that ANY mics are worth three grand!

[yousef]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Interesting. I'm fairly committed to omnis but have been experimenting with cards recently.

I have both and prefer the AT853 to the MKE40. I find the 853s have a sort of glossy, very polished quality to the sound, while the MKE40s tend to sound more raw. Not great descriptions, I know, but it's the best I can describe them.

There's definitely not much in it, but I'd be wary of regarding either as a clear upgrade over the other as I suspect most of the differences would come down to personal preference rather than 'quality' per se. I must say, though, that I've heard a lot said about the MKE40's apparently limited bass response but have had no problems with it myself. In fact, I can recall one recording that actually required a fairly hefty bass cut. I'm not going to argue with a spectral analysis but I definitely wouldn't be swayed against them on that count.

It could just be my imagination but I always get the feeling that the MKE40s are noticeably less directional than the 853s. I've not tried any sort of proper comparison but this is certainly my impression.

In terms of practicalities, I find the AT853s are a bit more streamlined and compact, which may be an issue depending on how and where you intend to use them.

In any case, I'm holding on to both for the moment and will jettison one after a few more shows.

[eman]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html
I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

I assumed he meant that you had so much gear in your pants it made you pee. Anyone use Depends for stealthing?

Having recently obtained the AT853's and experiencing great success I am glad to see that I made a fairly wise choice, at least for the money.

[aaronji]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html
I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

I assumed he meant that you had so much gear in your pants it made you pee. Anyone use Depends for stealthing?

D'oh!  There goes that foolproof method!  Please:  keep stealth stealth...(j/k, of course)

[acidjack]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html
I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

I assumed he meant that you had so much gear in your pants it made you pee. Anyone use Depends for stealthing?

D'oh!  There goes that foolproof method!  Please:  keep stealth stealth...(j/k, of course)

or are you kidding? I had always wondered about this unpleasant-sounding method.... 

[aaronji]

Yes, I was just kidding (= j/k).  But the more I think about it, the more this seems like an airtight method of getting your gear in the door!  How many security guys do you think would be willing to thoroughly examine the lump in your diaper...

[acidjack]

Yes, I was just kidding (= j/k).  But the more I think about it, the more this seems like an airtight method of getting your gear in the door!  How many security guys do you think would be willing to thoroughly examine the lump in your diaper...

I think I read somewhere in Clinton Heylin's book "Bootleg" (which is mostly about people selling unauthorized recordings for profit, rather than the actual act of taping live shows) that some of the guys back in the 70s would do this.  Of course, their gear was a lot bigger. 

If you had to take a piss, I guess you wouldn't miss any of the show this way, too....

[taperwheeler]

Yes, I was just kidding (= j/k).  But the more I think about it, the more this seems like an airtight method of getting your gear in the door!  How many security guys do you think would be willing to thoroughly examine the lump in your diaper...

I think I read somewhere in Clinton Heylin's book "Bootleg" (which is mostly about people selling unauthorized recordings for profit, rather than the actual act of taping live shows) that some of the guys back in the 70s would do this.  Of course, their gear was a lot bigger. 

If you had to take a piss, I guess you wouldn't miss any of the show this way, too....

Yeah but you'd short out your gear and run the risk of nard shocking...

[Dede2002]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

I'm very pleased with my HLSC-1. Mine does not have any mods though. Not strong bass, but detailed and pleasant to hear to.
But under the  the right conditions, I love my HLSO Micro omnis ( also Sennheiser based). But I'm an omni fan. Anyway, I'd like to add something to the "location-location-location" mantra for stealth: house sound.
I think it's always good to remember: a nice recording always starts with a nice source.
You can get the best location ever and end up with a crappy recording if the mix is not OK.
Take care, my friends 

[nameloc01]

^ also could have the best mix ever..and pull a schwank recording if you're in a bad location.

Location is absolutely paramount.

[taperwheeler]

^ also could have the best mix ever..and pull a schwank recording if you're in a bad location.

Location is absolutely paramount.

Kinda a marriage of sorts.  Without properly dialed in house sound, there is no sweet spot.

[Dede2002]

^ also could have the best mix ever..and pull a schwank recording if you're in a bad location.

Location is absolutely paramount.

Kinda a marriage of sorts.  Without properly dialed in house sound, there is no sweet spot.

Perfect point. That's what I was trying to say: even the knowledgeable taper has limits.
Without a good sound source, there is no sweet spot.

[yltfan]

Not cheap, but what about Milab VM44 Link?

[youngsbest]

Does any one have any experience with the sp cmc 19, AT898 cardioids? Are they an upgrade from the 853s? Haven't seen many recordings with them.

[acidjack]

Does any one have any experience with the sp cmc 19, AT898 cardioids? Are they an upgrade from the 853s? Haven't seen many recordings with them.

FWIW, when I bought my CMC-8's I asked Chris C. of Sound Professionals whether to buy these instead.  He recommended that for my application (generally, rock music, amplified) the CMC-8 were the better choice.  I since replaced my caps with the adapter and U853s and find those to be even better than the CMC-8.  I'm sure if you put the question to him, Chris can help with a compare.  If I remember correctly, the reason he thought they weren't a good option for me was they lack bass, but I could be misquoting.

(But no, to answer your question, I haven't tried them). 

[Ziggz]

Does any one have any experience with the sp cmc 19, AT898 cardioids? Are they an upgrade from the 853s? Haven't seen many recordings with them.

You sure you've got the right CMC-#? The CMC-19's were the first mics I owned, and I don't think they are AT's for $59. They sounded quite tinny - Frequency Response: 80 - 18,000 Hz

[youngsbest]

Yes, you're right, should be cmc 9 not 19.