Topic: MSH-1A omnis, part deux

[TNJazz]

OK, as promised here is my second outing with the omnis.  http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=7A8D0F9767A34864

Mics were positioned on stage, angled slightly outward, pointing at the band. 

Signal chain was MSH-1A -> Metric Halo 2882 @ 24bit/48kHz

Band is "Fortunate Sons".  You've heard all these guys a million times on records, but you may not know their names.

Only realdrawback to the onstage setup is that I got very little of the keyboards, which are far left in the mix.  You can hear them, but they're pretty faint.  It's a shame too, because it's the great Reese Wynans on the B3...!

This one is an mp3, but it's not significantly worse than the 24 bit source (it is, but only marginally IMO).

Leave comments on this thread please.

Thanks,
Dirk

[smokydays]

Sounds pretty good to me!  What are the rest of you hearing?

[OOK]

OH my GOD...Do thses sound Nice!!!!   hmm.    50$ where is my wallet....

[F.O.Bean]

worth every bit of 50 dollars for sure

were the drums farther back like the B3 overall sounds very nice IMO, i gotta get a pair w/ in the month

[F.O.Bean]

how big was the split?

[Chuck]

It sounds pretty good. I hear something in the chain overloading. The microphones perhaps?
Did you do any EQ or other external processing on the file?
It'll be another week before I can record anything, other than ambient stuff around the house, with the pair I bought.

[Shawn]

I hear something in the chain overloading. The microphones perhaps?

I hear something overloading too.

[TNJazz]

Split was about 4 feet (placed on either side of the center floor wedge)

The drums were a lot closer than the B3.  The guitar players (Gary Nicholson and Kenny Greenberg) are just louder than hell at all times.  You don't want to sit in the front row for these guys.  Plus the way the mics were positioned they were pointing directly at the guitar amps.

There was no processing done to the file, other than rendering to mp3.

For whatever reason, the mics do not seem able to handle the low end without some audible distortion.  This is also evident in last week's sample, although to a much lesser degree.  It's very noticeable in the Jack Pearson set (which was significantly louder than Oteil's set and was pretty close to the volume of the Fortunate Sons).

That being said, I still think they are an exceptional value for $50.  I would use caution on loud rock shows though, as you may experience some overloading.  These mics would certainly sound amazing on acoustic music though.

Dirk

[Chuck]

Yeah, I'm going to try them on Yonder Mountain String Band in a few weeks 

[china_rider]

Just thought I would say that my pair arrived yesterday.  I have not been able to try them yet but build quality looks very good.  Hopefully I'll get to try these over the weekend on the spare chan of my R-4.

[poorlyconditioned]

Split was about 4 feet (placed on either side of the center floor wedge)

The drums were a lot closer than the B3.  The guitar players (Gary Nicholson and Kenny Greenberg) are just louder than hell at all times.  You don't want to sit in the front row for these guys.  Plus the way the mics were positioned they were pointing directly at the guitar amps.

There was no processing done to the file, other than rendering to mp3.

For whatever reason, the mics do not seem able to handle the low end without some audible distortion.  This is also evident in last week's sample, although to a much lesser degree.  It's very noticeable in the Jack Pearson set (which was significantly louder than Oteil's set and was pretty close to the volume of the Fortunate Sons).

That being said, I still think they are an exceptional value for $50.  I would use caution on loud rock shows though, as you may experience some overloading.  These mics would certainly sound amazing on acoustic music though.

Dirk

I think these need three-wire powering.  It would be pretty simple to modify the existing design to do this.  Just cut the FET source-ground connection on the capsules (carefully!) and insert a 4.7k resistor.  The rest of the circuit could stay the same.

  Richard

[Chuck]

Would there be a problem using these MSH-1A's with a 100' mic snake? The impedence is 600 ohms. That's not ideal. The reason I ask, is I want to try runing these on stage and blend them with a SBD feed.

[poorlyconditioned]

Would there be a problem using these MSH-1A's with a 100' mic snake? The impedence is 600 ohms. That's not ideal. The reason I ask, is I want to try runing these on stage and blend them with a SBD feed.

I don't know.  Try it and let us know.  But if it is critical, I would try to put a preamp on stage if you can.

  Richard

[Chuck]

I will. I'll patch together a bunch of 20 footers between one capsule and a pre-amp and use just one 5 footer on the other and record the same source (white noise and some dynamic material) with the mics very close together. That should represent a worse case scenario.

[poorlyconditioned]

I will. I'll patch together a bunch of 20 footers between one capsule and a pre-amp and use just one 5 footer on the other and record the same source (white noise and some dynamic material) with the mics very close together. That should represent a worse case scenario.

Worst case scenario is in the field!  There you will have 60Hz, PA, light dimmers, etc.  If it is a critical job, don't leave room for error.  Put a preamp near the mics.

  Richard

[mmmatt]

I will. I'll patch together a bunch of 20 footers between one capsule and a pre-amp and use just one 5 footer on the other and record the same source (white noise and some dynamic material) with the mics very close together. That should represent a worse case scenario.

Worst case scenario is in the field!  There you will have 60Hz, PA, light dimmers, etc.  If it is a critical job, don't leave room for error.  Put a preamp near the mics.

  Richard

I run mics on 100' snakes all the time.  Why would these be any different?  They are bnallanced aren't they?  They would have to be for phantom, right?

Matt

[poorlyconditioned]

I will. I'll patch together a bunch of 20 footers between one capsule and a pre-amp and use just one 5 footer on the other and record the same source (white noise and some dynamic material) with the mics very close together. That should represent a worse case scenario.

Worst case scenario is in the field!  There you will have 60Hz, PA, light dimmers, etc.  If it is a critical job, don't leave room for error.  Put a preamp near the mics.

  Richard

I run mics on 100' snakes all the time.  Why would these be any different?  They are bnallanced aren't they?  They would have to be for phantom, right?

Matt

They are balanced, but a little higher impedance.  Go ahead and try it.

  Richard

[Chuck]

Yeah, Richard is right, most modern condensers are ~200 ohms. The MSH-1A's are 600 ohms. This used to be called medium impedence. Some of the old Radio Shack mics with phono plug conectors were 600 ohm mics.  There may be problems using microphones with this impedence with longer cable runs. I'll try to test them soon.

[mmmatt]

+T guys... I wasn't aware that was a problem.

Matt

[mmmatt]

got mine today and just gave them a test in the living room.  These little things are sweet for sure!  Great find Dirk +T again.   I'll run them spit this weekend for a couple local bar bands.  I have two friends who's bands are playing this weekend.  I'll get to try out the ultralite for the first time too (another thanks to Dirk for the sweet dealer hookup on the ultralite  <$500 inc. next day shipping for new>)... wow is that a sweet little toy too!  Unfortunately I can't find my butterfly clips for the msh-1a's... Do I drop $10 at the local electonics shop, or do I do the famed boiling water mod to my old oversized sp shocks
   Dirk, I never did get to d/l the clip from this thread to hear the overloading.  Do you think that was a long cable run issue?  It was on-stage.  Were you, or where you at foh running on the snakes?

Matt

[TNJazz]

got mine today and just gave them a test in the living room.  These little things are sweet for sure!  Great find Dirk +T again.   I'll run them spit this weekend for a couple local bar bands.  I have two friends who's bands are playing this weekend.  I'll get to try out the ultralite for the first time too (another thanks to Dirk for the sweet dealer hookup on the ultralite  <$500 inc. next day shipping for new>)... wow is that a sweet little toy too!  Unfortunately I can't find my butterfly clips for the msh-1a's... Do I drop $10 at the local electonics shop, or do I do the famed boiling water mod to my old oversized sp shocks
   Dirk, I never did get to d/l the clip from this thread to hear the overloading.  Do you think that was a long cable run issue?  It was on-stage.  Were you, or where you at foh running on the snakes?

Matt

I wrapped gaff tape around the XLR connector to get them to fit in a regular clip.  One of these days I'll get some clips for them.  Should have just bought them to begin with I guess.

The second clip is from mics placed onstage, running through the house snake system (probably 75-100 feet) and directly into the Metric Halo.  However, there is also distortion present (very slight) in the previous week's recordings, where the mics were flown on a stand about 20 feet from the stage directly into a Traveler.

I'd say the mics just can't handle the louder sources as well.  As msh put it, "don't put these anywhere you wouldn't put your ears."  I have no doubt they'd shine on acoustic music, but I haven't had an opportunity to try yet.

Dirk

[Chuck]

got mine today and just gave them a test in the living room.  These little things are sweet for sure!  Great find Dirk +T again.   I'll run them spit this weekend for a couple local bar bands.  I have two friends who's bands are playing this weekend.  I'll get to try out the ultralite for the first time too (another thanks to Dirk for the sweet dealer hookup on the ultralite  <$500 inc. next day shipping for new>)... wow is that a sweet little toy too!  Unfortunately I can't find my butterfly clips for the msh-1a's... Do I drop $10 at the local electonics shop, or do I do the famed boiling water mod to my old oversized sp shocks
   Dirk, I never did get to d/l the clip from this thread to hear the overloading.  Do you think that was a long cable run issue?  It was on-stage.  Were you, or where you at foh running on the snakes?

Matt

I wrapped gaff tape around the XLR connector to get them to fit in a regular clip.  One of these days I'll get some clips for them.  Should have just bought them to begin with I guess.

The second clip is from mics placed onstage, running through the house snake system (probably 75-100 feet) and directly into the Metric Halo.  However, there is also distortion present (very slight) in the previous week's recordings, where the mics were flown on a stand about 20 feet from the stage directly into a Traveler.

I'd say the mics just can't handle the louder sources as well.  As msh put it, "don't put these anywhere you wouldn't put your ears."  I have no doubt they'd shine on acoustic music, but I haven't had an opportunity to try yet.

Dirk

I plan to record a blue grass band on Saturday using the MSH-1A's.

[mmmatt]

Well, however you slice it these are great mics for the money.  Thanks for putting the time into them and for hanging around here answering our questions!  Nice buld quality too.  They look very pro.

matt

[Todd R]

Well, today was my 5th anniversary, and my wife got me a Marenius 4 channel mixer, and a pair of these MSH-1A's.

If all goes well, I'll try a DIN cards + 3' spread omnis mix on Sunday outdoors at Nedfest.  If it goes down, I'll report back how it sounds.

Thanks MS for these cool mics!  They look very professional, looking forward to trying them out.

[mmmatt]

Well, today was my 5th anniversary, and my wife got me a Marenius 4 channel mixer, and a pair of these MSH-1A's.

If all goes well, I'll try a DIN cards + 3' spread omnis mix on Sunday outdoors at Nedfest.  If it goes down, I'll report back how it sounds.

Thanks MS for these cool mics!  They look very professional, looking forward to trying them out.

your wife rocks!  +T for #5!

Matt

[Chuck]

I made a recording last night of a bluegrass band with the MSH-1A's:

MSH-1A (35 cm spacing)> PS-2> AD-20> DTR-80p (44.1 kHz, 16 bit)
This is a straight recording. I just transfered it from the DAT, with no EQ or level adjustments.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=70843.new#new

There is lots of bass bloom, but that's to be expected, inside with omnis. Good band too, BTW.

Chuck

[Chuck]

OK, that's the good news... with lower level, acoustic music, the MSH-1A's sound fine...

Now the bad news...

My Cracker recording using the same rig, same spot, same night (with less gain on the AD-20) was unlistenable because of the bass distortion.   

I may try them on Yonder Mountain String Band  at Red Rocks over Labor Day. That is, if I can get psyched about carrying a whole second rig up those steps...

[F.O.Bean]

OK, that's the good news... with lower level, acoustic music, the MSH-1A's sound fine...

Now the bad news...

My Cracker recording using the same rig, same spot, same night (with less gain on the AD-20) was unlistenable because of the bass distortion.   

I may try them on Yonder Mountain String Band  at Red Rocks over Labor Day. That is, if I can get psyched about carrying a whole second rig up those steps...

i know, those steps are ROUGH

[mmmatt]

I ran mine for the first time Frid night and I was very pleased.  It was in a bar with a small system so no spl problems at all.  A little bass heavy but just omni-like in that regard.  I also came up with a nice split omni bar too that worked great with them.  I'm going to post some picturesin rig pics when I get a chance.  it cost me all of $8.30, a few peices I had laying around, and about 5 minutes of time.  These are nice sounding mics, but obviously not suited for loud rock shows.  I'm supposed to be doing some 1/2 assed studio work in the next couple of weeks and they will be used there for the drum kit I think.  Maybe on an acoustic too.

Matt

[Oysterhead00]

I made a recording last night of a bluegrass band with the MSH-1A's:

MSH-1A (35 cm spacing)> PS-2> AD-20> DTR-80p (44.1 kHz, 16 bit)
This is a straight recording. I just transfered it from the DAT, with no EQ or level adjustments.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=70843.new#new

There is lots of bass bloom, but that's to be expected, inside with omnis. Good band too, BTW.

Chuck

Thanks for posting the link....downloaded it and liked the sound so I ordered myself a pair of the MSH-1O's   Hopefully I'll run them (along with my regular rig) next month at a Grace Potter & The Nocturnals show.

[rowjimmy]

FYI -He's card his Cards up on the site now too. Dude is a mad man cranking stuff out down there, I guess. Pricing on the cards is the same (or mighty close iirc) as that for the omnis.

Additionally, he now has a page up for his 'mobile' line: http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/mobilemicrophones.html

[cleantone]

I want to hear the tube mics.

[rowjimmy]

As do I. I'm likely making a purchase later this month and I might throw one of those in the mix, just to see (hear) how it behaves...

[davepeck]

did he change the name from MSH-1A to MSH-1O? 

[mmmatt]

Special Offer!
 
Previous Customers:  Purchase any pair of MSH-1 series microphones and receive free matching!
 
New Customers:  Receive free matching on a pair of MSH-1 series microphones when purchasing a second pair of MSH-1s or an MSH-4!
 
Please use the single microphone button to purchase a quantity of 2 MSH-1 series microphones to receive your discount, and include a comment with your order requesting the matched pair (a $6 savings from the price of the matched pair).  Customers who are purchasing the stereo kit, or use the matched pair button will receive a $6 refund via Paypal.
 
Offer expires September 30, 2006

nice offer!

matt

[TNJazz]

did he change the name from MSH-1A to MSH-1O? 

yes.  O for omni.  C for cardioid.

[mmmatt]

did he change the name from MSH-1A to MSH-1O? 

yes.  O for omni.  C for cardioid.

is the max spl rating the same?  I seem to remember the 1a being 115db, or am I confused.

matt

[bgalizio]

Hmm... may have to pick up the omnis. They could be good for a 4 mic mix...

[Chuck]

Hopefully Jon will chime in, but this is what he told me about the MSH-1O's:

Yes, the electronics are a little different (than the 1A's), so I could use the same
bits for the 1O and 1C.  Sensitivity is higher, SPL handling is higher
by 6dB, and the 1C is much higher, 124dB at 1kHz, but that is where the
mic is most sensitive, so for bass frequencies it could easily be 10dB
more. The 1C is tailored response though, so
I am not sure how desirable it would be for some applications.

Looks like I need to get the 1O's now...

[RebelRebel]

Jon, got your loaner today...WIll be throwing it up against 5 or 6 other omnis for kicks.

Teddy

Yes, the 1A is retired.  I needed a circuit that would work for the cardioid and the omni to keep my life uncomplicated, and the 1A circuit didn't.  I also listened to the cries for higher SPLs, so the 1O is higher.  In fact during my very intensive testing in development of the 1O, I noted that the 1A was likely 114dB +/- 2dB rather than 116 +/- 2dB.  Sometimes statistics are like that  when I can't test 30 microphones.  So the 1O is more conservatively rated at 122; actually I did a test today at 126 @ 0.8% THD.

Long story short, if you have an SPL problem with the 1A, shoot me an email.  If you don't and don't think you will, hold on to the 1A, there is no other advantage to the 1O.

The tube mic has highly variable distortion.  I wouldn't recommend it for any sort of recording where you desire accuracy.  While it doesn't clip until about the same level as the 1O; the distortion is around 2-4% for a very wide range below that, which is sort of the point.

I offer 1Cs in stereo pairs although I am somewhat ambivalent about it; I really don't know if I would consider it flat enough for that sort of thing, but enough people have asked me about it that it's available . . .

I'll have more about the 1M later, but since it is really designed for flexible power supplies, there is a limit to how much I can push SPLs.  I think it might get up to 1A levels, but I don't know about higher, and of course that would also depend on the power supply used . . .

[TNJazz]

Jon, got your loaner today...WIll be throwing it up against 5 or 6 other omnis for kicks.

Loaner?  I woulda thought you had deep enough pockets for a $20 omni, Ted   

[RebelRebel]

Jon, got your loaner today...WIll be throwing it up against 5 or 6 other omnis for kicks.

Loaner?  I woulda thought you had deep enough pockets for a $20 omni, Ted   

ever the joker!   Thats alright, I can take it!

[Ryan Sims]

[rowjimmy]

Jon, got your loaner today...WIll be throwing it up against 5 or 6 other omnis for kicks.

Teddy

Any results to report, Teddy?

I got my pair of MSH-1Os today so I'm gonna throw them up against these oktavas i have onhand. One thing about the the dmic-20 is that it's ideal for duplicating preamp gain...

[Chuck]

I haven't had the chance to check the SPL handling ability of the 1O's. Has anyone used them in a venue recording a PA system yet?

[rowjimmy]

Def. won't be testing that tonight... kids just went to bed. but i'm gonna close the windows to keep out the crickets and pull out the acoustic guitar.

[Chuck]

Paging Richard...

[bgalizio]

Has anyone tried the MSH-1O's in the healy method? I'm thinking of picking up a pair of these for 4 mic mixes, but generally don't have the room to split the omnis too far apart.