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Author Topic: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?  (Read 12634 times)

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Offline ricky d

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What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« on: April 17, 2023, 08:38:51 PM »
Hi Guys

Old time taper (125 GD shows 1988-1995), first time on this forum.

So I got lucky and scored tickets for Dead and Company at Barton Hall next month.  From what I understand taping is allowed and I'm very seriously considering running an analog set up for nostalgia sake.  My D5 and D6 are still operational!!

I used to run Nak 300s and CP4s back in the day for the arenas and stadiums - did a few Metallica shows then too.  Results were mostly good all things considered, with a few average and some really awesome ones too.

Obviously, Barton Hall is small and notoriously bad for acoustics, soooooo I'm looking for help on what mics to go with.  I have both Nak 100s and 300s available, as well as CP4 shotguns.  Problem is I picked up the CP4s on ebay last year so haven't had the opportunity to try them yet.  So they're something of a gamble.  I also have a Rode NT4, if anyone thinks that's an option in this situation....

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments anyone could offer on this, I'm all ears (har har).

Thanks,
Rick

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2023, 11:47:01 PM »
This is so cool!  :cheers: 
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
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Offline datbrad

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2023, 08:19:07 AM »
It's the same rule of thumb as when you used those Naks back in the day. CP4s if they put tapers in the back behind the sbd, CP1s if the section is closer/FOB.
 My two D5s haven't had batteries in them since 1993 so my concern would be if the rubber rollers or drive belts have deteriorated over time.
Suggest you setup the rig in your listening room using batteries in the D5, put on Aja by Steely Dan or Moving Pictures by Rush and crank it up loud and record at least 30 minutes of sound. Warble effects of deteriorated drive belts/capstan rollers tend to occur as the take up reel becomes heavier. If you can't hear noticable wow and flutter creeping in towards the last 10 min or so, you should be good to go. Good luck !!!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2023, 08:39:16 AM »
Obviously, Barton Hall is small [..snip]

Small is relative! From the Wikipedia entry-

"For a long time, Barton Hall was the largest unpillared room in existence. The interior of the building covers almost 2 acres (8,100 m2), and includes a 1/8 mile (200m) indoor track.[1]"
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Offline ricky d

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2023, 11:43:28 AM »
The D-5 was serviced a couple years ago and all seems good, but will dust it off and run it in record to make sure everything else is working as it should.  Actually, buying blank cassettes is now becoming the issue.  Luckily i bought out the local Dollarama stores years ago and grabbed about 100 XLIIS tapes for a buck a piece....!

And yah, I guess Barton Hall isn't small exactly, but smaller than MSG and the other stadiums and sheds Dead and Co have been playing!  I did tape Furthur there in 2010 but had battery issues with the mics so only had one clear channel that night, which was too bad.  And at that time they let us tape from beside the sound board if I recall.  Not sure what the deal will be this time around but I'm guessing it will be at the back of the floor...

Thanks for the replies folks!

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2023, 12:37:11 PM »
I'd go 300's with the capsules as datbrad said.   
Maybe also bring a digital rig as back-up? although, surely there will be other tapers.
I brought my D5 to a solid technician who has repaired all sorts of things for us, he wouldn't touch it.
Have FUN!!!
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Offline ricky d

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2023, 12:53:59 PM »
Yes, I will likely take my digital set up along for back up as you say.  I'm just weighing the fun factor vs. running two set ups and potential problems.... we've all been there, right??!  I stopped actively taping about 10 years ago but picked it back up just before Covid.  I gotta admit I didn't miss it all that much... must be gettin old.  Har har.  But its still fun to come home and blast it through the home system.

Too bad my old taper friend packed up his 300s and moved away many years ago - those mics had seen (and nicely captured) some killer early 80s shows!!  I tried buying them off of him, but he couldn't part with the memories.  I get that.

Offline vantheman

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2023, 12:01:38 AM »
I love this project and hope it comes to fruition . I imagine you might be able to borrow/rent some gear from folks here who would like to see this happen.
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Offline bonghitwillie

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2023, 03:21:09 PM »
bring out all your recorders and mics and make multiple recordings simultaneously. also do like i used to do for tape stock, record over old hissy unknown generation dead shows.

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2023, 05:37:14 PM »
Guns all the way if it's OTS  :cheers:
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
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Offline morst

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2023, 02:01:07 AM »

taping is allowed


looking for help on what mics to go with
If your gear bag is not overloaded, then go with all of them, and use what seems right once you get there!?
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Offline ricky d

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2023, 11:12:30 PM »
Well just to follow up on the Barton Hall show.  Ended up with the Nak 100s with the CP4 capsules as I wasn't confident in my battery set up for the 300s.  I was located just behind the board on the left hand side.  Not ideal but it worked out ok.  The D5 worked great and I got a very decent cassette master!  I also ran a Zoom H4N for a digital "back up" and that worked out pretty well too.  I didn't see any other tapers towards the back of the hall, although there were a half dozen stands FOB in the VIP section.  There is at least one version up on Internet Archive.  I'll do a closer analysis when I get some time next week, but for now I'm quite happy with the outcome overall.  Oh by the way, the show was a smoker - exceeded my expectations.  Hope they keep up this kind of momentum.

Thanks for the input guys.  Appreciate it. 

P.S.  I'll also be running the D5 from the lawn at Burgettstown, SPAC, and Deer Creek if anyone's looking for a patch!   :yahoo:

Offline billydee

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2023, 11:05:32 AM »
Well just to follow up on the Barton Hall show.  Ended up with the Nak 100s with the CP4 capsules as I wasn't confident in my battery set up for the 300s.  I was located just behind the board on the left hand side.  Not ideal but it worked out ok.  The D5 worked great and I got a very decent cassette master!  I also ran a Zoom H4N for a digital "back up" and that worked out pretty well too.  I didn't see any other tapers towards the back of the hall, although there were a half dozen stands FOB in the VIP section.  There is at least one version up on Internet Archive.  I'll do a closer analysis when I get some time next week, but for now I'm quite happy with the outcome overall.  Oh by the way, the show was a smoker - exceeded my expectations.  Hope they keep up this kind of momentum.

Thanks for the input guys.  Appreciate it. 

P.S.  I'll also be running the D5 from the lawn at Burgettstown, SPAC, and Deer Creek if anyone's looking for a patch!   :yahoo:
Old school rules, go analog!  :cheers:

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2023, 11:17:18 AM »

P.S.  I'll also be running the D5 from the lawn at Burgettstown, SPAC, and Deer Creek if anyone's looking for a patch!   :yahoo:
I am hoping to be taping at SPAC. For now I only have one lawn pass for both nights. I need 2-3 more tickets for each night in order to make it work for me and my crew.
We always make a nice section up there on the lawn. MUST be in front at doors.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2023, 02:46:37 PM »
That is so awesome! Can't wait to hear it!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2023, 11:27:32 AM »
ricky d's rig at SPAC: Nak cm100's with cp4 shotgun capsules
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=202649.msg2397127#msg2397127

It was great to meet you man. PM me to talk tape deck repair stuff

music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2023, 03:55:15 PM »
Nice!

The open Corona placed at just about the outer edge of spill-radius from the D5, cradled in the always questionably effective crotch of the stand as there is nowhere else better, implying just the right amount of throwing caution to the wind, just enhances the a trip down memory lane.

Anybody show up and ask for a patch from anyone's rig?

Any swirling drums and space through the trees at the back of the lawn?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline boomfizzle

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2023, 10:51:36 AM »
Well just to follow up on the Barton Hall show.  Ended up with the Nak 100s with the CP4 capsules as I wasn't confident in my battery set up for the 300s.  I was located just behind the board on the left hand side.  Not ideal but it worked out ok.  The D5 worked great and I got a very decent cassette master!  I also ran a Zoom H4N for a digital "back up" and that worked out pretty well too. 

I've always kind of wondered...if you were to digitize the D5 source and compare to your digital "back up", might it be possible to isolate the delta for an EQ profile of what the tape is doing to the sound?  I always wished there was a Maxell XLII plugin I could throw on top of a source to sweeten it like the old days.
Mics: Busman BSC-1 | Nak CM300s | AKG C1000s | AKG C568 EBs | AT853s 4.7k mod | AT2021s | Superlux S502mkii | Superscope EC-3S | Superscope EC-33S | SP-MS-BMC-3 |
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2023, 01:18:41 PM »
Well just to follow up on the Barton Hall show.  Ended up with the Nak 100s with the CP4 capsules as I wasn't confident in my battery set up for the 300s.  I was located just behind the board on the left hand side.  Not ideal but it worked out ok.  The D5 worked great and I got a very decent cassette master!  I also ran a Zoom H4N for a digital "back up" and that worked out pretty well too. 

I've always kind of wondered...if you were to digitize the D5 source and compare to your digital "back up", might it be possible to isolate the delta for an EQ profile of what the tape is doing to the sound?  I always wished there was a Maxell XLII plugin I could throw on top of a source to sweeten it like the old days.
interesting question. Not only what does tape itself shape the sound BUT the D5 also. If you have the scope and/or math skills I am betting this would be possible (to detect the frequency differences, if any) to analyze the digital master comparing it with the digital file from the analog master.
making a plugin after that would be cool. I guess it might be able to have strata such as Maxell XLII; TDK-MA, etc
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline morst

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2023, 11:49:21 PM »
Rational acoustics SMAART can probably do this


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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: What Naks to use for Dead & Co at Barton Hall?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2023, 12:37:10 PM »
I've always kind of wondered...if you were to digitize the D5 source and compare to your digital "back up", might it be possible to isolate the delta for an EQ profile of what the tape is doing to the sound?  I always wished there was a Maxell XLII plugin I could throw on top of a source to sweeten it like the old days.

You could use a matching EQ - one that analyzes the frequency spectrum of one source and applies it to another, and get close frequency response-wise.  But frequency response probably varies somewhat with level, and there are other non-linear things going on such as tape and head compression/saturation, and potentially unwanted stuff like wow, flutter and noise. Could emulate that with some tape emulation plugin.  The question becomes how closely do you really want to emulate the behavior of the D5 - do you want a true warts and all emulation or just the aspects of it you find sonically attractive?

Somewhat OT- Similarly I've long thought someone should market a little device that vinyl audiophiles could use to play digital recordings through their turntable cartridges. A little output device that drives a phonograph pickup cartridge to emulate vinyl playback absent a physical record groove or disk.  Essentially a small low-power cutting head that wiggles a stylus rather than cutting a groove.  I suspect this would emulate much of what folks like about vinyl playback and the user can choose whichever cartridge they prefer.  Perhaps offer a couple versions, one a fully contained unit with signal in/out, another with just an input and the driving head as output, something you set on or attach to an existing turntable base for use with the same cartridge and arm for playing records.  Maybe such a thing exists already,.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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