Topic: Upgrade from AT853? Stealth only

[scoper]

I've had the AT853 (from SoundPro) for 12 years, using with all kinds of different equipment. I've upgraded everything else over the years, but kept the mics. I have omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid capsules.

I've had great success with these mics, but I wonder if I should consider upgrading. I tape strictly stealth, in all kinds of different venues and shows, from non-amplified acoustic folk to stadiums. Think Loudon Wainwright to Bruce Springsteen, and you're in my sweet spot.

At one point I had them modded to 3-wire mini-xlr, then recently (during a repair) had the 2 wire stereo mini-plug put back on. I have never overloaded these mics.

Should I be happy with what I have, or look to get something else? I run these with either a battery box or small preamp into my new Edirol R-09HR. Price is definitely an issue, though I don't have a cap in mind - just want some opinions.

They must be stealthy, easy to use, and sound better than what I have already.

Any ideas?

Scott

[sunjan]

First question: which aspect are you not satisfied with?

I don't know what preamp you're running these with, my theory is that you would get better bang for the buck making sure that you're pre is top notch. Looking into the 4.7K mod is also worthwhile, if you haven't done it yet.

Since upgrading gear follows the law of diminishing returns, the more you spend the smaller the improvements get.

A few suggestions:
Church cards, although the difference might not be huge.
DPAs
...or would you consider even more expensive mics?

[scoper]

I'm just throwing ideas out there... I'm not really dissatisfied, I just have mic envy for the Schoeps and Neumanns, etc, and wondering if there is an in-between. I probably wouldn't ever give up the 853's, because they are incredibly versatile.

I usually use the cardioid caps... if I were strictly an omni's user I'd probably think about the DPA's, but they're rather pricey.

I know how popular the AT853's are, with I guess the Church Audio mics (which I have never seen or heard) a second choice in the same general price range. Having upgraded to the 09HR puts me in gearslut mode, and I'm considering my options, if any.

[Belexes]

A few suggestions:
Church cards, although the difference might not be huge.

There really isn't that much of a difference. It's a lateral move to go to Church mics from 853's.

[sunjan]

I'm just throwing ideas out there... I'm not really dissatisfied, I just have mic envy for the Schoeps and Neumanns, etc, and wondering if there is an in-between. I probably wouldn't ever give up the 853's, because they are incredibly versatile.

I usually use the cardioid caps... if I were strictly an omni's user I'd probably think about the DPA's, but they're rather pricey.

For stealthable cards without phantom, there aren't that many options above AT and Church gear.

I found two very similar threads:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,98023.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,75904.0.html

But you'll find that most suggestions involve P48 and at least $1300 for a pair 

Which preamp are you running?

[colargol]

Hi!

I did the same kind of research last year, trying to find a better mic solution than i had (I had/have Core Sound Cardioids), and was looking for something for doing stealth.

I was not able to find anything in a "medium price range", which would be USD 500-1000. So I thought, what the heck, I'm planning to keep doing this for many years to come, why not go for the upper price range...? So I got myself an nbox and schoeps mk4s (card)/mk41s (supercard), and the results I am getting are a lot better than what I'm used to. It took a little bit of creativity to make this rig stealth, but I've come up with a good solution. For this rig I paid USD 1400 and around USD 1000 for a set of capsules (2nd hand).

Good luck!

-Colargol

[su6oxone]

Should I be happy with what I have, or look to get something else? I run these with either a battery box or small preamp into my new Edirol R-09HR. Price is definitely an issue, though I don't have a cap in mind - just want some opinions.

If you're thinking about upgrading then I'm assuming you would like the sound quality on your tapes to be a bit better.  If price is a big issue, then I would say just stick with the AT853, any other mic in that price range will be a lateral move like others have stated.  Later on, if price becomes less of an issue, I would recommend Schoeps CCM4 or DPA 402x > Marantz PMD-661.  That's my dream stealth rig but will cost some $3,000 for the DPA version used and more for the Schoeps. 

Like colargol mentions above, another good and popular option would be Schoeps MK4 (or whatever caps) > NBox > R-09HR.  The MK4 caps would go for around $1-1,200 used and the NBox for around the same new (I think).  So for about $2k (maybe a bit less) you could upgrade from a decent stealth rig to a great one. 

[Scooter123]

I have SP CMC8's and was also dissatisfied.  Not directional enough.  Got the Schoeps and yes they sound much warmer, and are a tad more directional, but honestly, for the wad that a dropped, I bet I improved the sound only 10-15%.  And you need a bulky and costly preamp.  So Schoeps is not a miracle pill for recordings. 

In retrospect, a better use of money would be to upgrade tickets to find the sweet spot.  I'll match my CMC8's against any Schoeps if I can have an extra $50-100 for ticket upgrades.  In short, CMCs's at 10th row dead center sound better than Schoeps 15 rows back on the side.

The three golden rules of stealth recording:

Location
Location
Location

[Belexes]

The three golden rules of stealth recording:

Location
Location
Location

Very much so.  I agree on your Schoeps comments vs the AT's.  People just automatically assume for the price paid that you'll get nothing but pristine recordings.  Not so as I have heard some stealth Schoeps recordings that sound pathetic.

[acidjack]

I've had the AT853 (from SoundPro) for 12 years, using with all kinds of different equipment. I've upgraded everything else over the years, but kept the mics. I have omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid capsules.

I've had great success with these mics, but I wonder if I should consider upgrading. I tape strictly stealth, in all kinds of different venues and shows, from non-amplified acoustic folk to stadiums. Think Loudon Wainwright to Bruce Springsteen, and you're in my sweet spot.

At one point I had them modded to 3-wire mini-xlr, then recently (during a repair) had the 2 wire stereo mini-plug put back on. I have never overloaded these mics.

Should I be happy with what I have, or look to get something else? I run these with either a battery box or small preamp into my new Edirol R-09HR. Price is definitely an issue, though I don't have a cap in mind - just want some opinions.

They must be stealthy, easy to use, and sound better than what I have already.

Any ideas?

Scott

Ha - I have this same thought just about every day. 

I own both AT U853 (with the low-sens/4.7k mod) and DPA 4061s (currently in the shop....still..grrr..) and like you find that I am mostly having to go without a stand, whether "stealth" strictly speaking or not.  My AT U853s are into CMC-8 (i.e., AT 943) bodies with adapters.  I have the cardiod and hyper AT 853 caps, and the omni AT 943 caps. 

I think from an optimum placement, the DPA 4060/4061 are clearly better than the AT 943/CMC-8 omnis, so for close-in work, that's a legit upgrade IMHO.  Of course, once you're getting further back, I'm not sure you do a lot better with the DPA's than you do with the U853's, if not worse.

Another option that isn't discussed here as much is the DPA 4021/4022/4023.  They require phantom, but as I understand it you can stealth them into one of the smaller Marantz machines with the Oade mod (which I understand provide their own phantom and therefore don't force you into carrying a pre) and get pretty great results.  Once I have the cash flow, this is probably a route I'll investigate more thoroughly.  And I'll probably look at the Schoeps and Neumanns, as well.

But as other posters have said, for stealth, I'll put my 4061/AT853 tapes against Schoeps tapes from worse spots any day. 

[su6oxone]

I agree with the idea that an average mic in a good spot will turn out a better tape than a superior mic in a poor location.  But why not just compare the 'average' mics with the higher-end mics in the same location, because in that case the Schoeps are going to blow the AT853 and the other comparable mics away.  That's why I would recommend going the MK4 > Nbox > recorder route or CCM4/402x > pre > recorder if stealthing is all the OP wants to do and if he wants the best sounding results from whatever location he is in.  Of course, YMMV. 

[nameloc01]

Its all about what sounds good to your ears. Period. That goes for everything,..mics,pres,decks..ect. I like Schoeps,I don't love them..and I'm not sure they'd "blow them away"...any legit improvement is *very* marginal and hardly worth the extra....what..2k..? Seriously..I'd put the extra money towards more tix. But to answer the question...I wouldn't be looking for "an upgrade" I'd be looking for "a change-up", meaning something that sounds just as good...but a little "different"
Make sense?

[darktrain]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

[illconditioned]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass.   Most cases this is a nonissue since clubs have too much bass anyway.  I've got some samples at my website if you're curious, the same rig, except with 2k2 mod.

Oh yeah, omni vs. cardioid.  I'd take an excellent omni (Countryman B3, Sennheiser KE4) over a card in (almost) all instances.  Unless someone is talking directly behind or beside you, and doing that continuously to ruin the show, I find the omnis are OK.  Notice I didn't say DPA406x.  For some reason I don't always like these omni recordings.  Can't explain why though.

  Richard

[M]

audix 1290!