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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: marvin100 on February 21, 2010, 02:43:25 AM
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Hi guys,
First, apologies if this is the wrong area. If so, I trust the mods will put it where it belongs.
Basically I'm asking for various opinions on what I should buy and do for my very specific needs.
I have a Sound Devices 788t. A pair of Little Blondies omni mics is on the way.
I will be recording in two main situations:
1) At home studio.
Improvised music performed by 1-4 people sending stereo signals direct to the recorder and augmented by room mics for ambience and sometimes acoustic instruments (much of the music is electronic). Wide dynamics, from very quiet to medium volume. Very diverse timbres, from rough machine-like sounds and scraping to rich harmonic content and even pure sinetones.
2) At shows.
Improvised music performed by 1-6 people sending stereo signals direct to the PA (and possibly to the recorder when 8 channels will suffice) augmented by room mics for ambience and sometimes acoustic instruments. The music is the same, but the volume is higher. Rooms are typically "concrete box" style music venues and bars, quite small. Small, quiet/attentive audiences shouldn't pose a big problem, but I'd rather avoid chair squeaks and feet shuffling, etc.
I think my recorder is great & I'm more than pleased with the pre's (I record at 24/48, btw). I don't know how I feel about the Little Blondies mics yet, of course, but I'm pretty sure I'll want to either upgrade or add more mics at some point this year.
I'd rather not have a lot of different gear for different situations, but if it would be a significant benefit to the sound for me to use different mics at home and at shows, I can do so. I'm also of course very interested in your recommendations for mics or arrangements that will be flexible enough to help me get the best fidelity in both situations. Recordings from the home studio will need to be suitable for release, and it's quite likely some gig recordings will see release as well (assuming, of course, I can get the sound quality I expect).
Thanks for your help here and all the other stuff I've learned on this board!
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So you're primarily shopping for more mics?
I guess stealth is not a concern, so the field is wide open. What's your budget?
Mention your gear chain in the subject head, to attract the right readers...
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So you're primarily shopping for more mics?
I guess stealth is not a concern, so the field is wide open. What's your budget?
Mention your gear chain in the subject head, to attract the right readers...
Yeah, mics, I guess...budget? Maybe $500 now and then a grand or two in a few months.
(And thanks for the advice!)
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Yeah, mics, I guess...budget? Maybe $500 now and then a grand or two in a few months.
How many mics are you looking for (you mentioned spot micing instruments, etc.)? And are you planning to buy something soon given that you'll have a significantly larger budget in a few months?
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The basic question will b e whether to save for good top of the line mics or go out and get some pretty good mics. This is a hard call. I made one decision which worked for me but might not work for you. Think it through.
Your recorder is a good one and likely will not let you down.
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Yeah, mics, I guess...budget? Maybe $500 now and then a grand or two in a few months.
(http://www.busmanaudio.com/pictures/cap_mics.jpg)
BSC1 - Great versatile kit, since you were looking for something that works both live and studio.
If you want to sell them later on to fund more expensive mics, you could probably recover most of your investment on the YS.
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i would recommend AKG 414xls. its a very versatile mic and can be used for spot micing, stereo pair micing and is great in the studio.
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I'd also recommend the ADK TL's - one less pattern than the AKG 414's but also much cheaper & they sound great.
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Sell your 788t if it is too late to return it and replace it with a cheap usb/firewire interface and some good mics. Spending $6,000+ on your recorder and only $500 or even $1,500 on your mics is the wrong way to do it. The mics are not only vastly more important to the quality of the recordings you make, they are primarily mechanical devices that will remain useful for decades, unlike electronics.
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OTOH this fellow can get started with a very good recorder and some pretty good mics. That SD will be around and working for years. I agree that the mics are paramount but it is a little late to redo this. We'll just have to help this fellow out as best we can.
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Yeah, I seriously considered other recording options (laptop/interface, mainly), but for various reasons, that won't work for me. Tour/traveling, portability/ruggedness are serious factors, as are some other more personal reasons.
And, as I explained above, most of my recording is done direct. I want to use mics to supplement the direct lines, and am hoping for knowledgeable advice about how to do that rather than unsolicited advice about my recorder (that I flew to Hong Kong to purchase after a great deal of research and, obviously, saving). I've been recording music almost entirely direct only for almost a decade, so I know how to keep doing that (and the pre's on the 8 are a delight)--this is about branching out and how to best do so.
Thanks to those of you who have tried to answer my question. The AKG mics above look like great options, ones I hadn't really looked at before. You think mics like that would be better for me than smaller, thinner mics? I know so little about mics, but as I said, portability is a very real factor.
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I know so little about mics, but as I said, portability is a very real factor.
Check out Schoeps CCM compact condenser microphone line. Some CCM4 (cardioid), CCM21 (sub/wide cardioid), or CCM2/2S (omni), might suit you well. The CCM5 (switchable cardioid/omni) might be also useful for you as well. Unfortunately, they tend to me hard to find used and cost about $2k each new, but they are very compact. I have a pair and they are awesome!
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A bit beyond your stated initial budget, but you might consider the AT4051 mic pair that jnornan is selling in the yardsale (at $630 for the pair).
Very nice mics, and they are modular, so you could start now with just the cardioid pair and later when you've got more money to spend pick up some omni mic capsules or even hypercardioid mic capsules depending on your need.
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First of all i completely agree with going the schoeps route. However it appears to be out of your budget. There is a pair of Rode NT2000 is the ys (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132579.0) For $1000. They are not compact, but they give you a lot of options and I had a pair of Rode NT 2's about 10 years ago and they were great until I was able to upgrade later.
good luck
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Okay, so I'm going to pick up some CCM5s in a year or so, and will make do with a pair of little blondies and a pair of AKG414s in the meantime. This setup is satisfactory for now, and between now and getting the Schoeps, I'll have lots of time to get better at recording.
Thanks for your help, guys.
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Does the 788 multitrack? Might be a deal breaker for studio use. Although you could probably run it as a through device. It should have 8 rather nice preamps in it. Seems like a big kit for a small venue. But I guess it depends on how you want to handle drums. Always nice to have options.
I've started off with Avenson STO-2's (still my main pair). $500-ish. Busman BSC1 seems nice too for about the same cash. Although the SPL rating on the STO-2 is higher. That would be my only reservation. Proximity (small venue) and ambient levels (concrete box) can make SPL a pretty major concern. Plus musicians instinctually like to play louder in a venue that makes them sound loud.
Usage? Some stage and a room set? Just one room set(pair), or two? Main pair, plus flanks. Or just two at separate gain settings to play it safe. Decca tree (5.1 or 7.1). Lots of options. A lot of the $500 or less options might not be up to par with more expensive options. You could, arguably should, spend about the same on your mics as you did the field recorder, if not more.
My next step up will likely be MKH 8020's at about $1,000 per mic. 414's might be a better stepping stone. But I'm not a fan of the brand. DPAs, Schoeps, and other options. It really depends on what you're looking for. And what issues you will need to cope with. Wind? Rain? Humidity? Heat? Cold? And other things that are not always prevailing conditions outdoors, but can be indoors as well.
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good luck!
cant go wrong with the 414s they are great mics
a
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Does the 788 multitrack? Might be a deal breaker for studio use. Although you could probably run it as a through device. It should have 8 rather nice preamps in it. Seems like a big kit for a small venue. But I guess it depends on how you want to handle drums. Always nice to have options.
It's not a deal-breaker for what I do, which is improvised music and involves no overdubs or layering.
Plus musicians instinctually like to play louder in a venue that makes them sound loud.
Again, not a problem for the kind of music I'm involved in.
Usage? Some stage and a room set? Just one room set(pair), or two? Main pair, plus flanks. Or just two at separate gain settings to play it safe. Decca tree (5.1 or 7.1). Lots of options. A lot of the $500 or less options might not be up to par with more expensive options. You could, arguably should, spend about the same on your mics as you did the field recorder, if not more.
For performances, a direct stereo pair for each player plus a pair of room/stage mics. Sometimes a player will be all acoustic and I'll spot mic that player instead of taking a direct stereo pair. I agree good mics are important, but less so for me since my main feed will be direct, as I've said. Either way, though, I don't like to think of the equipment in terms of dollar amount--I'd like to have mics that live up to the capabilities of my recorder, but it's not of primary import because of what I do. And as I said before, it looks like Schoeps CCMs are the best long-term answer for me, but I'll have to wait to have ready cash to get a pair. Until then, I'm pretty happy with what I have.
My next step up will likely be MKH 8020's at about $1,000 per mic. 414's might be a better stepping stone. But I'm not a fan of the brand. DPAs, Schoeps, and other options. It really depends on what you're looking for. And what issues you will need to cope with. Wind? Rain? Humidity? Heat? Cold? And other things that are not always prevailing conditions outdoors, but can be indoors as well.
I tried to explain my particular needs earlier in the thread. If you read that and still have good questions that will help me, please have at it! But this other stuff has been covered, I believe.
Thanks!
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You never really know what your needs are until you have the need. I would have never thought that I'd need 3x layers of DIY fake fur on top of my windtech wind foams and rycote wind jammers. But I do. And sometimes that's not enough.
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Sell your 788t if it is too late to return it and replace it with a cheap usb/firewire interface and some good mics. Spending $6,000+ on your recorder and only $500 or even $1,500 on your mics is the wrong way to do it. The mics are not only vastly more important to the quality of the recordings you make, they are primarily mechanical devices that will remain useful for decades, unlike electronics.
I agree, I can really use your 788 if you want to sell it.
Or, maybe trade with me for my 744 and cash, then go buy some mics.
Let me know....
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Not going to happen. I routinely record electronic quartets and need all four stereo pairs of inputs. Read the thread before posting something stupid like that.
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Not going to happen. I routinely record electronic quartets and need all four stereo pairs of inputs. Read the thread before posting something stupid like that.
Wow Marvin,
Thank you for the kind words, it is a pleasure.
Welcome to taperssection and most of all:
HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DAY MY FRIEND :)
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Sorry, that was harsh. There seems to be a problem here, though, with people responding with knee-jerk comments--despite my extensive explanation of my needs--and I took a little of that out on you. Apologies. And every day is beautiful when you're me ;)
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Just curious why stereo pairs PER PLAYER? Is there some choreagraphy involved? Safe and danger zone gain levels? One DI, one mic?
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The music I'm recording is electroacoustic, and the players mix their own sounds in the stereo field. It's also useful for me when eight-channel performances occur (not often, but sometimes).
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Sorry, that was harsh. There seems to be a problem here, though, with people responding with knee-jerk comments--despite my extensive explanation of my needs--and I took a little of that out on you. Apologies. And every day is beautiful when you're me ;)
Apology accepted, thank you.
But, I wasn't responding with a 'knee-jerk comment', I just want a 788 and thought you would appreciate the offer.
Perhaps the reason that you are not getting the answers you are looking for is because your question is very hard to answer.
There are tons on microphones out there that will serve your purpose and how you like the results will be a combination of what you find you like and how well you are at using your tools. You see, many people here have a sickness of always switching up gear.
But, this sickness is how people learn about the sound and functions of different tools. It takes a long time to get familiar with different recording techniques and gear and how they sound...the similarities and differences.
Perhaps some people find it a little comical that someone self labeling himself as a 'new taper' is buying one of the most expensive portable recorders on the market when there are plenty of recorders for 10-20% the price that will also give you good results.
I think it is interesting that you want Schoeps CCM microphones because I want those too.
But, I know exactly what they sound like and why I want them (not exactly related).
Most people here have started off with great sounding economically reasonable rigs. They learned the sound of different microphones and recording techniques. Then, if they felt it was needed, they would swap out gear to tailor it for their needs and desires. But, without investing time learning and really getting to know what you want, then it is hard for someone to tell you what you need.
By explaining that you NEED 4 stereo pairs to record your situations, people will definitely raise an eyebrow as this might be perceived as an odd method to record the scenario you speak of. I am not doubting that you need 8 channels, but is this really the best way to do it? Perhaps, might be cool, but....
Recording is a hobby for some, a business for others, but for most, an art form and skill that requires more than getting the right tool. And, that skill leads people to know what tools they need. It does not work the other way, the tools don't make you good at recording and having the best tools money can buy doesn't mean you will be good at using them.
I know plenty of professionals that can make incredible recordings with microphones that cost under $100 each, plenty of craftsmen that have old tools and can make beautiful functional and non-functional art/furniture/constructions. AND, I have heard plenty of recordings that were way sub-par on $10,000+ of gear as well as people with the best saw and tools in their garage that can't hammer a nail or cut a board straight. Skills first, gear later, then your skills will tell you what your gear should be.
I'm not trying to lecture you here, I'm just trying to give you insight on why you may not be getting the fast easy answers that you desire. I also respect that fact that you are here, trying to learn and asking people, this is a great way to get familiar with what is out there but don't expect people to give you the answers that you want. You are asking for free advise and they are giving you free advise...the price is right :) Perhaps you can also look around at the gearslutz board and see what kind of responses you get there. You might also pick out some CDs that you really like, ask yourself what you like and don't like about the recording. Then look in the CD to see if they credit the gear. If not, perhaps an email to the artist or recording engineer...I'm sure they will tell you.
Anyhow, best of luck to you and I wish you the best on your journey!
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Yes, thanks for clarifying. I thought I'd explained myself--and resolved my question, even--so the offer to buy a machine I haven't even remotely expressed dissatisfaction with didn't strike me as being in good faith. If I was wrong on that, I apologize, but there *is* a section of the site for selling things, and this thread is not in that section, after all.
Anyway, I'm settled for now and looking forward to finding the right mic setup for my peculiar needs. As for why I got such a nice machine (seriously? that's somehow an eyebrow raiser here? would NOT have anticipated that!) I've been putting out records for a long time and the 788 is my (hopefully) long-term solution to self-recording and performance documentation. I take great care to get things right and I understand that in many other situations mics are the top priority, but I'm working in an unusual area of music with unusual signal chain needs. I did a lot of research and am more than satisfied that I made the right call.
I thought this thread was done a few comments ago, but I think now it really should be. There seems to be some interest from a few people in this thread in getting me to "defend" my gear choices, but I'm not interested in doing that and don't think I should have to. So I'm out.
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It's not so much defend your gear choice as it is to better explain your "need". Mics can be very application (and location) specific. As far as electro-acoustic, couldn't you just take a stereo line in feed from the source? Why mic a reproduction of a reproduction? aka cheap mics recording cheap speakers. Unless the gear is all analog and the sound source semi-mechanical, it should have some form of output suitable (or convertible) for the field recorder. Sans mics.
Case in point, I record brass ensembles (with percussion). My STO-2's are nice mics, but without proximity their noise floor is noticeable. They're also a little light on the low end. EQ helps, but it can't add what's not there. Fine mics for a lot of sources and in your $500 target range. But not quite the end of the road for my needs. I picked up a used AT3035 the other day and it's probably better suited for my needs (baring that stereo pair thing). Lower noise floor and more low end reach. I also picked up an ATM75 for voice. Not that it's a stellar mic, but having a mic that moves with a source solves a lot of would be issues. I had a pair of SM81s at one time and they were fine mics too, but had a completely different character with a loud source than they do with a soft one. Plenty of low end there, but pushed to the extremes and it's not something I'd care to repeat. Just options among many. And your need is likely more than just I need a pair of mics for $500 ($250 per mic).
You could try gearslutz, but honestly, if you can't explain your need here, good luck there. I actually asked to be banned from that site. As a hobbyist recorder with just a stereo recorder and a stereo pair, I don't need some mod force feeding me a need for triplicating my gear to have a reliable backup.
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I thought this thread was done a few comments ago, but I think now it really should be.
That's the beauty of TS.com......... it's never done! >:D
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I just re-read OP's first post. He lays it out very clearly what he is doing and why. But that aside, if he bought the 788T for a doorstop and asked whether we thought it should be right-side or upside down all we need do is answer the question. When someone asks "how" we needn't ask "why." Especially when he has explained it. Just my 2ยข.
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Hi guys,
First, apologies if this is the wrong area. If so, I trust the mods will put it where it belongs.
Basically I'm asking for various opinions on what I should buy and do for my very specific needs.
I have a Sound Devices 788t. A pair of Little Blondies omni mics is on the way.
I will be recording in two main situations:
1) At home studio.
Improvised music performed by 1-4 people sending stereo signals direct to the recorder and augmented by room mics for ambience and sometimes acoustic instruments (much of the music is electronic). Wide dynamics, from very quiet to medium volume. Very diverse timbres, from rough machine-like sounds and scraping to rich harmonic content and even pure sinetones.
2) At shows.
Improvised music performed by 1-6 people sending stereo signals direct to the PA (and possibly to the recorder when 8 channels will suffice) augmented by room mics for ambience and sometimes acoustic instruments. The music is the same, but the volume is higher. Rooms are typically "concrete box" style music venues and bars, quite small. Small, quiet/attentive audiences shouldn't pose a big problem, but I'd rather avoid chair squeaks and feet shuffling, etc.
I think my recorder is great & I'm more than pleased with the pre's (I record at 24/48, btw). I don't know how I feel about the Little Blondies mics yet, of course, but I'm pretty sure I'll want to either upgrade or add more mics at some point this year.
I'd rather not have a lot of different gear for different situations, but if it would be a significant benefit to the sound for me to use different mics at home and at shows, I can do so. I'm also of course very interested in your recommendations for mics or arrangements that will be flexible enough to help me get the best fidelity in both situations. Recordings from the home studio will need to be suitable for release, and it's quite likely some gig recordings will see release as well (assuming, of course, I can get the sound quality I expect).
Thanks for your help here and all the other stuff I've learned on this board!
Yep, clear as mud. 1-6 players sending stereo signals to a PA. To be recorded in stereo with an 8 channel recorder? Are they looking for 6 more mics? What budget? What source? SM58 for the singer --- It's not a singer, it's a drumset --- Then say that in the original question.
Title: Specific mic and setup advice requested for SD 788 non-stealth--new taper.
That's about the only clear part. The title and that's it.
Meanwhile: I'm asking for various opinions.
But: when given... (thank you, but ... or ... bad attitude (trying to keep it clean))
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Singer? Drumset?
They're sending signals DIRECT--no mics, DIRECT. I said this.
sending stereo signals direct
I also said I wanted mics for one of two reasons: a room stereo pair, OR occasionally spot-micing one acoustic performer. This mud is beginning to exhibit strange transparent qualities...
The music is improvised electroacoustic music--no vocals, pretty much never drums (and certainly not a trapkit, maybe a single snare or floor tom used in a very unconventional--not percussive--way).
I asked for opinions. I got some. I used one. I wrote that I had solved my problem and made up my mind.
That was a clear signal that I didn't need more advice. Perhaps, though my keyboard said "no," you registered the exasperated look in my eyes as a "yes," but that's on you, not me.
Ugh.
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direct to the PA. At what point is the field recorder? AFTER PA, BEFORE? Split, or bridging?
So you're not looking for setup opinions? Not looking for mics? Were you wanting cable suggestions?
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I was looking for advice on a few things, but I got good advice on mics and took some of it. Since then I've been looking for nothing, and to your credit you've been very forthcoming in providing it.
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AS have you.
So this thread was more about I have a 788T, therefor I rock?
Or are you using strange terminology?
PA? Means public announce/address to me. As in speakers, and in stacks. Which for an intents has NOTHING TO DO WITH A FIELD RECORDER. Are you using PA to mean preamp or something. Psychic anomoly? Psuedo Acoustic? Direct to nothingness??? If you can't explain, how are we supposed to suggest anything? Perhaps selling it and maintaining your psychic friends network subscription is the better option.
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PA, as usual, means public address system. In this case, a mixer to a pair of powered JBL PA speakers, in most cases. When, as I noted is a possibility, eight channels isn't enough, I'll figure out the best option depending on the musicians and my needs.
Improvised music performed by 1-6 people sending stereo signals direct to the PA (and possibly to the recorder when 8 channels will suffice
So this thread was more about I have a 788T, therefor [sic] I rock?
I don't rock at all. Wouldn't dream of it. Is there something about the device itself that gets you so wound up? It's just a tool, man.
Once more, from the top:
I had a genuine question. Some people pointed me in useful directions. With their advice, I did research. I then got mics and made a plan to get more in the future. This all happened nicely and efficiently, and then I posted about it. For some reason, after that, you decided my question or the thread wasn't satisfactory to you for some reason. Since then, you've been gnawing on it like a chew-toy, for no apparent reason. Why can't you let this go? Your fixation on me and my recording setup is beginning to worry me.
What exactly do you hope to get from this interminable exchange? Whatever it is, I assure you you'll depart as empty-handed as you arrived.
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Marvin, if you want serious, mature responses you are better off over at GearSlutz. This kind of shit happens too often and I think it is just plain, petty jealousy. Or simple stupidity. It cetrtainly is not graciousness or a desire to help a fellow taper but only to criticize what he is doing.
Try www.gearslutz.com
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I'm just trying to figure out your question. You're obviously unwilling the explain it. How could anyone help? even at another site.
By all means pipe a 1000W PA feed into your line level inputs. Enjoy the blue smoke, it's direct.
Or did you mean direct like this?
(http://home.earthlink.net/~shadow_7/direct.gif)
Or just keep calling people names and failing to explain your need. Meanwhile I'm out... Enjoy the silence.
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I'm just trying to figure out your question.
You're very late on that.
By all means pipe a 1000W PA feed into your line level inputs. Enjoy the blue smoke, it's direct.
You seem to be coming unhinged.
Enjoy the silence.
There's no such thing...
;)
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First of all i completely agree with going the schoeps route. However it appears to be out of your budget. There is a pair of Rode NT2000 is the ys (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132579.0) For $1000. They are not compact, but they give you a lot of options and I had a pair of Rode NT 2's about 10 years ago and they were great until I was able to upgrade later.
good luck
These would be mine. The pattern selection is unsurpassed... it is completely variable from omni to fig 8... You are absolutely set for any situation you walk into, A/B, X/Y, split omni, Blumlein, DIN, DINA, NOS, M/S............ect..... There aren't exactly compact, but that depends on how you run them and space them ..... The mics are extremely quite....they have a self noise of only 7db.....thats perfect for studio mics.....and the field...They are great room ambient mics.... The freq response is amazing, the clarity is amazing....... If I didn't need the money so bad I would keep them.... If they don't sell I won't be disappointed... I just need the money right now, bad...
Also I had these special ordered to be consecutive serial numbered...and they have all the extra's.....hard mount, wind screen, pelican case, shock mounts...
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Yes, the 414's are very nice. You may not need another pair.