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Author Topic: Specific mic and setup advice requested for SD 788 non-stealth--new taper  (Read 12908 times)

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Offline Shadow_7

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Does the 788 multitrack?  Might be a deal breaker for studio use.  Although you could probably run it as a through device.  It should have 8 rather nice preamps in it.  Seems like a big kit for a small venue.  But I guess it depends on how you want to handle drums.  Always nice to have options.

I've started off with Avenson STO-2's (still my main pair).  $500-ish.  Busman BSC1 seems nice too for about the same cash.  Although the SPL rating on the STO-2 is higher.  That would be my only reservation.  Proximity (small venue) and ambient levels (concrete box) can make SPL a pretty major concern.  Plus musicians instinctually like to play louder in a venue that makes them sound loud.

Usage?  Some stage and a room set?  Just one room set(pair), or two?  Main pair, plus flanks.  Or just two at separate gain settings to play it safe.  Decca tree (5.1 or 7.1).  Lots of options.  A lot of the $500 or less options might not be up to par with more expensive options.  You could, arguably should, spend about the same on your mics as you did the field recorder, if not more.

My next step up will likely be MKH 8020's at about $1,000 per mic.  414's might be a better stepping stone.  But I'm not a fan of the brand.  DPAs, Schoeps, and other options.  It really depends on what you're looking for.  And what issues you will need to cope with.  Wind?  Rain?  Humidity?  Heat?  Cold?  And other things that are not always prevailing conditions outdoors, but can be indoors as well.

Offline Big Perm

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good luck!
cant go wrong with the 414s they are great mics
a
Mics: Schoeps mk4v| mk41v | mk22 | mk8 & mk5 (m/s)
         Schoeps m222> nt222dc (x2)
         Schoeps cmc 1k (x2)
         Schoeps vst62iu (x2)
         Schoeps KCY 250/5 IG (x2) Schoeps KC 5g (x2)
         DPA 4015c
Pre’s: Sonosax SX-M2D2
         Aeta PSP-3
         E.A.A. PSP-2
Recorder: Sonosax sx-r4+, SD702, Sony m10

Offline marvin100

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Does the 788 multitrack?  Might be a deal breaker for studio use.  Although you could probably run it as a through device.  It should have 8 rather nice preamps in it.  Seems like a big kit for a small venue.  But I guess it depends on how you want to handle drums.  Always nice to have options.

It's not a deal-breaker for what I do, which is improvised music and involves no overdubs or layering.

Plus musicians instinctually like to play louder in a venue that makes them sound loud.

Again, not a problem for the kind of music I'm involved in.

Usage?  Some stage and a room set?  Just one room set(pair), or two?  Main pair, plus flanks.  Or just two at separate gain settings to play it safe.  Decca tree (5.1 or 7.1).  Lots of options.  A lot of the $500 or less options might not be up to par with more expensive options.  You could, arguably should, spend about the same on your mics as you did the field recorder, if not more.

For performances, a direct stereo pair for each player plus a pair of room/stage mics. Sometimes a player will be all acoustic and I'll spot mic that player instead of taking a direct stereo pair. I agree good mics are important, but less so for me since my main feed will be direct, as I've said. Either way, though, I don't like to think of the equipment in terms of dollar amount--I'd like to have mics that live up to the capabilities of my recorder, but it's not of primary import because of what I do. And as I said before, it looks like Schoeps CCMs are the best long-term answer for me, but I'll have to wait to have ready cash to get a pair. Until then, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

My next step up will likely be MKH 8020's at about $1,000 per mic.  414's might be a better stepping stone.  But I'm not a fan of the brand.  DPAs, Schoeps, and other options.  It really depends on what you're looking for.  And what issues you will need to cope with.  Wind?  Rain?  Humidity?  Heat?  Cold?  And other things that are not always prevailing conditions outdoors, but can be indoors as well.

I tried to explain my particular needs earlier in the thread. If you read that and still have good questions that will help me, please have at it! But this other stuff has been covered, I believe.

Thanks!

Offline Shadow_7

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You never really know what your needs are until you have the need.  I would have never thought that I'd need 3x layers of DIY fake fur on top of my windtech wind foams and rycote wind jammers.  But I do.  And sometimes that's not enough.

Offline midside

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Sell your 788t if it is too late to return it and replace it with a cheap usb/firewire interface and some good mics.  Spending $6,000+ on your recorder and only $500 or even $1,500 on your mics is the wrong way to do it.  The mics are not only vastly more important to the quality of the recordings you make, they are primarily mechanical devices that will remain useful for decades, unlike electronics.

I agree, I can really use your 788 if you want to sell it.
Or, maybe trade with me for my 744 and cash, then go buy some mics.
Let me know....


Offline marvin100

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Not going to happen. I routinely record electronic quartets and need all four stereo pairs of inputs. Read the thread before posting something stupid like that.

Offline midside

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Not going to happen. I routinely record electronic quartets and need all four stereo pairs of inputs. Read the thread before posting something stupid like that.

Wow Marvin,
Thank you for the kind words, it is a pleasure.
Welcome to taperssection and most of all:

HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DAY MY FRIEND :)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 08:24:36 PM by midside »

Offline marvin100

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Sorry, that was harsh. There seems to be a problem here, though, with people responding with knee-jerk comments--despite my extensive explanation of my needs--and I took a little of that out on you. Apologies. And every day is beautiful when you're me  ;)

Offline Shadow_7

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Just curious why stereo pairs PER PLAYER?  Is there some choreagraphy involved?  Safe and danger zone gain levels?  One DI, one mic?

Offline marvin100

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The music I'm recording is electroacoustic, and the players mix their own sounds in the stereo field. It's also useful for me when eight-channel performances occur (not often, but sometimes).

Offline midside

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Sorry, that was harsh. There seems to be a problem here, though, with people responding with knee-jerk comments--despite my extensive explanation of my needs--and I took a little of that out on you. Apologies. And every day is beautiful when you're me  ;)

Apology accepted, thank you.
But, I wasn't responding with a 'knee-jerk comment', I just want a 788 and thought you would appreciate the offer.
Perhaps the reason that you are not getting the answers you are looking for is because your question is very hard to answer.
There are tons on microphones out there that will serve your purpose and how you like the results will be a combination of what you find you like and how well you are at using your tools.  You see, many people here have a sickness of always switching up gear.
But, this sickness is how people learn about the sound and functions of different tools.  It takes a long time to get familiar with different recording techniques and gear and how they sound...the similarities and differences.
Perhaps some people find it a little comical that someone self labeling himself as a 'new taper' is buying one of the most expensive portable recorders on the market when there are plenty of recorders for 10-20% the price that will also give you good results.
I think it is interesting that you want Schoeps CCM microphones because I want those too.
But, I know exactly what they sound like and why I want them (not exactly related).
Most people here have started off with great sounding economically reasonable rigs.  They learned the sound of different microphones and recording techniques.  Then, if they felt it was needed, they would swap out gear to tailor it for their needs and desires.  But, without investing time learning and really getting to know what you want, then it is hard for someone to tell you what you need.
By explaining that you NEED 4 stereo pairs to record your situations, people will definitely raise an eyebrow as this might be perceived as an odd method to record the scenario you speak of.  I am not doubting that you need 8 channels, but is this really the best way to do it?  Perhaps, might be cool, but....
Recording is a hobby for some, a business for others, but for most, an art form and skill that requires more than getting the right tool.  And, that skill leads people to know what tools they need.  It does not work the other way, the tools don't make you good at recording and having the best tools money can buy doesn't mean you will be good at using them.
I know plenty of professionals that can make incredible recordings with microphones that cost under $100 each, plenty of craftsmen that have old tools and can make beautiful functional and non-functional art/furniture/constructions.   AND, I have heard plenty of recordings that were way sub-par on $10,000+ of gear as well as people with the best saw and tools in their garage that can't hammer a nail or cut a board straight.  Skills first, gear later, then your skills will tell you what your gear should be.
I'm not trying to lecture you here, I'm just trying to give you insight on why you may not be getting the fast easy answers that you desire.   I also respect that fact that you are here, trying to learn and asking people, this is a great way to get familiar with what is out there but don't expect people to give you the answers that you want.  You are asking for free advise and they are giving you free advise...the price is right :)   Perhaps you can also look around at the gearslutz board and see what kind of responses you get there.   You might also pick out some CDs that you really like, ask yourself what you like and don't like about the recording.  Then look in the CD to see if they credit the gear.  If not, perhaps an email to the artist or recording engineer...I'm sure they will tell you.

Anyhow, best of luck to you and I wish you the best on your journey!

« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 11:48:47 AM by midside »

Offline marvin100

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Yes, thanks for clarifying. I thought I'd explained myself--and resolved my question, even--so the offer to buy a machine I haven't even remotely expressed dissatisfaction with didn't strike me as being in good faith. If I was wrong on that, I apologize, but there *is* a section of the site for selling things, and this thread is not in that section, after all.

Anyway, I'm settled for now and looking forward to finding the right mic setup for my peculiar needs. As for why I got such a nice machine (seriously? that's somehow an eyebrow raiser here? would NOT have anticipated that!) I've been putting out records for a long time and the 788 is my (hopefully) long-term solution to self-recording and performance documentation. I take great care to get things right and I understand that in many other situations mics are the top priority, but I'm working in an unusual area of music with unusual signal chain needs. I did a lot of research and am more than satisfied that I made the right call.

I thought this thread was done a few comments ago, but I think now it really should be. There seems to be some interest from a few people in this thread in getting me to "defend" my gear choices, but I'm not interested in doing that and don't think I should have to. So I'm out.

Offline Shadow_7

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It's not so much defend your gear choice as it is to better explain your "need".  Mics can be very application (and location) specific.  As far as electro-acoustic, couldn't you just take a stereo line in feed from the source?  Why mic a reproduction of a reproduction?  aka cheap mics recording cheap speakers.  Unless the gear is all analog and the sound source semi-mechanical, it should have some form of output suitable (or convertible) for the field recorder.  Sans mics.

Case in point, I record brass ensembles (with percussion).  My STO-2's are nice mics, but without proximity their noise floor is noticeable.  They're also a little light on the low end.  EQ helps, but it can't add what's not there.  Fine mics for a lot of sources and in your $500 target range.  But not quite the end of the road for my needs.  I picked up a used AT3035 the other day and it's probably better suited for my needs (baring that stereo pair thing).  Lower noise floor and more low end reach.  I also picked up an ATM75 for voice.  Not that it's a stellar mic, but having a mic that moves with a source solves a lot of would be issues.  I had a pair of SM81s at one time and they were fine mics too, but had a completely different character with a loud source than they do with a soft one.  Plenty of low end there, but pushed to the extremes and it's not something I'd care to repeat.  Just options among many.  And your need is likely more than just I need a pair of mics for $500 ($250 per mic).

You could try gearslutz, but honestly, if you can't explain your need here, good luck there.  I actually asked to be banned from that site.  As a hobbyist recorder with just a stereo recorder and a stereo pair, I don't need some mod force feeding me a need for triplicating my gear to have a reliable backup.

Offline yug du nord

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I thought this thread was done a few comments ago, but I think now it really should be.

That's the beauty of TS.com.........  it's never done!   >:D
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline boojum

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I just re-read OP's first post.  He lays it out very clearly what he is doing and why.  But that aside, if he bought the 788T for a doorstop and asked whether we thought it should be right-side or upside down all we need do is answer the question.  When someone asks "how" we needn't ask "why."  Especially when he has explained it.  Just my 2¢.
Nov schmoz kapop.

 

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